ST_DM_Myle wrote:The problem here is that we have people/characters with wholey different belief ethos and perceptive on alignment trying to insert thier ideals into the conversations of others.
This would be like having a pair of dogs talking about playing fresbe and a cat comes up and looks at the fresbe and says... "Flip that stupid thing over and put some sand im it and it would make a nice litterpan for a kitten."
The D&D ethos includes a specific system of the relationships between alignments. Those who are unable to relate to that system simply will not be able to contribute to a discussion based on that imbedded system.
This does not mean that the incompatable ideals are wrong or invalid, It just means that finding a common ground and being able to relate may be difficult.
Myle
Gahani wrote:Up to this point, this has been a friendly discussion. I get the distinct feeling I have just been told to either fit in or shut up. If that is the case, then it is time to lock this thread.
Chiffawn wrote:Myle... even the kitten is allowed to say what it thinks
This thread did not start out as a discussion of a conversation that went on in the keep though it was "inspired" by that conversation (I can clearly see that, as can anyone else who perused the words on the screen)
Winesa clearly did not define the ethos of D&D good and evil as she attempted (poorly in my opinion) to play a neutral to the struggle against good and evil. Good is good and so is evil is hardly a neutral discussing balance. A neutral defending apathy perhaps ... but then that is the easy way out of playing a neutral.
IMHO
Fawn TN
Oh for the love of Pete, people?!
Do you really have to wear those great big " I am a victim! " signs ALL the time?
*Sighes* Does everything anyone says just HAVE to directly be an insult or a negative just because it does not fall in lthe margins of your ideal reality?
For the overly sensitive and persecuted members of this community, let me see if I can find some overly specific way to make my point.
I will post my elaboration in bold and my retorts in standard text:
Let me open with a quote of the original thread:
Gahani wrote:Balance is the great gaseous fart of philosophy...all stench and no substance.
One of the things I have noticed in this game is a tendency to simplify evil to the point of absurdity. We have all seen the characters who rampage through the keep on a killing spree and justify their actions by saying they are evil. I have even heard discussions of "balance" which claim that both good and evil are somehow necessary to each other. My reaction has been an almost visceral offense and I apologize if you have been unfortunate enough to be nearby at the time. I think part of the difficulty is that my concept of evil is quite different. As I have stated elsewhere, I can only manage to deal with the DnD alignment system by suppressing my gag reflex continually. The notion that evil is doing bad things leads to all sorts of things, not the least of which are simplistic characters and bad stories.
Evil is embracing a lie...not simply doing bad stuff. An example might be useful to illustrate the slide into evil. Let us say that a woman has had bad experiences with the men in her life. She has suffered one abandonment after another until she is emotionally quite broken. At this point she is on the precipice and could easily slide one way or the other. It would be easier and less painful to embrace the lie "All men are bad" and act accordingly. This removes the pain of self doubt and allows the woman to function. Unfortunately she has taken the first step on a very perilous road. Perhaps the pain and anguish is still too much giving rise to great anger. If the woman were to express that anger by killing someone because he was a man and "all men are bad" then she would have taken a decisive step towards evil. Each further step increases the investment in the lie until the woman is quite trapped. Admitting that some men may be good would also require admitting she had committed a series of horrible acts.
So where is the evil? It is not in the act of killing because killing to defend someone's life may not be wrong at all. It is not even in the act of killing an innocent because it is possible to cause the death of an innocent through accident and this is not evil, though it is certainly a great misfortune. No, the essence of evil is the embracing of a lie and acting on it. Evil is in the heart of the person. Against such the sword of the paladin is quite useless for the only defense is that self doubt that allows you to question the motivations of the things you do.
Notice two things here....first, my example is just that...an example. It could have just as easily been any one of a hundred other things. Do not take offense at the particulars. Men have just as much capacity for evil as women. In that at least we are quite equal. Second, I did not qualify my position by saying "In my opinion..." for I really do believe what I said above. I am willing to listen to others but I am not willing to soften my stance to give you an easier time in making your arguments.
The problem here on BSK is very similar to the problem many alignment based games have: The alignments are artificial and contrived. Long time and skillful players may come to play together and have very different ideas of how a given alignment should or would respond. In many situations, niether participant in the disagreement is incorrect.
The abstraction of alignments and creating then with such polar traits was done on purpose by the founder of D&D: Gary Gygax... widely considered the father of fantasy roleplay.
The original alignments have been altered and touched up and "improved" many times, but the crux of it remains quite simple: Alignments are designed to help provide a clear line between idealogical archtypes.. specifically between good and evil.
The intent of that game, despite the changes in more recent times, is for the players to play hero's, good guys, fictional characters in a fictional world that used a system of play that allowed the normal person enough reaity to relate and enough fantasy that they could suspend thier disbelief and play.
In part, this is fostered by an alignment system that is clearly absurd when measured against the truth of reality.
The point of contention here seems clear: we have people and characters with wholey different belief ethos and perceptions on alignment who are trying to insert thier own ideal into the conversations of others.
Gahani wrote:I have even heard discussions of "balance" which claim that both good and evil are somehow necessary to each other. My reaction has been an almost visceral offense and I apologize if you have been unfortunate enough to be nearby at the time. I think part of the difficulty is that my concept of evil is quite different. As I have stated elsewhere, I can only manage to deal with the DnD alignment system by suppressing my gag reflex continually.
There is nothing wrong with this, aside from the fact that you knowingly interjected your own personal OOC ideals and hangups with the games alignment system through your IG character in an IC fashion. By your own words, you identified the need to apolgize for your actions to anyone unfortunate to have been forced to witness the episode.
Further down you point out that you do not consider your post to be a simple matter of opinion due to your strong belief in the matter.
The very definition of opinion is a personal belief on a subject.
Your assessment that evil can be properly identified as the ebracing of a lie is insightful and accurate. I doubt any strong arguement could be mounted against your stance.
The part your lacking is that some people are evil just because they are evil. The enjoy it and they hold no lies or misunderstandings regarding thier actions. This can be due to a series of choices, it could be due to a mental defect, or it could be that the persons choices or the persons suffered abuses lead to a fissure within their psyche that leaves a psychological disorder.
If you are a person of faith, you may accept the notion of something or someone just being evil.. plain and simple.
In the end, what you state IS an opinion, IS valid and IS appropriate to express.
The problem is the manner you choose to express yourself in.
When we have the concept of fictional, fantasy alignments with its own established precedents as part of the "standards and expectations" in the roleplay of an online game, things can get complicated. Amoung a group of friends around a table, it often just takes a few moments to ajudicate a point of contention. More often than not, a group of friends have a similar enough set of ideas that they can relate with and accept each others views.
BSK is made up of thousands of players.
We come to a server that we KNOW has certain expectations. We are expected to follow a series of rules that has been forced to grow extensivily in hopes of addressing a multitude of matters big and small.
The most commonly referred to rule is:
Being open minded and polite to other players is not only the golden rule here, but also the single best way that so many players of various styles can coexist, interact and share in the fun which Driller has supplied.
In part, this rule is served by characters not forcing themselves into a conversation and attempting to belittle them or indoctrinate them with another set of ideals.
"This would be like having a pair of dogs talking about playing fresbe and a cat comes up and looks at the fresbe and says... "Flip that stupid thing over and put some sand im it and it would make a nice litterpan for a kitten." "
This was an Apple and Orange moment. If you have two people disuccing the merits of something as they see them... Say the merits of sweet oranges and sour oranges... Just because the discussion is about fruit, the apple vendor really has no place in the discussion.
Can the apple merchant offer his apples? Sure. By all means... But for him to demean the people for prefering a fruit of a different flavor is uncalled for.
Chiffawn wrote:Myle... even the kitten is allowed to say what it thinks
Of course it can. I am not sure how your chain got jerked, but your right.
The server rules expects that dogs and cats and fish and bears and pollywogs of all kinds and colors play and respect the others who come to play.
The server rules also say that cats who play with dogs might get eaten.
That said, I do not think that oranges or apples will eat eachother. They can mix things up sometimes and make some great dishes and smoothies, but apples and oranges are different enough that they always have thier own taste.
This is why sometimes, apples should not upset the cart.
The D&D ethos includes a specific system of the relationships between alignments. Those who are unable to relate to that system simply will not be able to contribute to a discussion based on that imbedded system unless they chose to participate in a way that allows some common ground.
The art of conversation has some general rules of its own. One of these rules require that all participants must have a common subject and a willingness to extend a civil tone. Only once these are met, can any benifitial discourse take place.
This does not mean that the incompatable ideals are wrong or invalid, It just means that finding a common ground and being able to relate may be difficult.
Gahani wrote:Up to this point, this has been a friendly discussion. I get the distinct feeling I have just been told to either fit in or shut up. If that is the case, then it is time to lock this thread.
It is not only appropriate, but common, that DM's on this server will attempt to address matters. The post I made was niether unfriendly or an effort to tell you to fit in ot shut up.
The post simply pointed out that if you chose to hold firm to a position you find to your liking, you have that right. It also pointed out that sticking firmly to that uncompromising position may well limit your ability to effectivly relate with some people.
I am not sure why you feel victimized to hear a simple and well known truth of any community.
Chiffawn wrote:This thread did not start out as a discussion of a conversation that went on in the keep though it was "inspired" by that conversation (I can clearly see that, as can anyone else who perused the words on the screen)
Winesa clearly did not define the ethos of D&D good and evil as she attempted (poorly in my opinion) to play a neutral to the struggle against good and evil. Good is good and so is evil is hardly a neutral discussing balance. A neutral defending apathy perhaps ... but then that is the easy way out of playing a neutral.
IMHO
Fawn TN
Flunck out of Social Tact 001 in Finishing School?
Me too.
There are topics on most server forums that are seasonal and generally end the same way:
Not enough DM's
Too little loot
Need more quests
I want to start at 5th level, female barbarian spawn in loin cloths, and more swamps and gold and...
We need more events
The forges never drop enough
Lag is horrible
Lets raise the player count
And...
Assorted of alignment lamentations.
Inevitablely a DM or sometimes two wil chime in and at least one will get lamblasted.
Here on BSK, thats generally me... always has been.
You do not have to like that I am around, but I am. Feeling victimized by my responses is a personal choice and your welcome to it. The DM's have been culled many times, but Myle remains. I am not here because the team needs a token maniac. I am here because I know and respect my position.
In case someone is part of the new and unwashed masses, I am Myle. Storyteller and Dungeon Master here on Blackstone. My current position is and has always been the Bad Cop.
As players, your all invited to play the game and the DM team attempts to maintain a reasonable reign without strangling the fun out of the game.
One of the simplist and easiest thing a player can do to make thier time on BSK the most enjoyable it can be is to remember that this is a Fantasy Game and exists in a Fantasy Setting.
Specific to this: Trying to inject real world ideology, regardless of how valid the ideology is, into the fantasy setting that is based on purposefully unreal limitations will cause strife. Even so, this server allows for such expression, provided it is not distruptive or infringing on others reasonable expectation of playing thier own style.
Myle
LoT-zine©
