Balance is the great gaseous fart of philosophy...all stench and no substance.
One of the things I have noticed in this game is a tendency to simplify evil to the point of absurdity. We have all seen the characters who rampage through the keep on a killing spree and justify their actions by saying they are evil. I have even heard discussions of "balance" which claim that both good and evil are somehow necessary to each other. My reaction has been an almost visceral offense and I apologize if you have been unfortunate enough to be nearby at the time. I think part of the difficulty is that my concept of evil is quite different. As I have stated elsewhere, I can only manage to deal with the DnD alignment system by suppressing my gag reflex continually. The notion that evil is doing bad things leads to all sorts of things, not the least of which are simplistic characters and bad stories.
Evil is embracing a lie...not simply doing bad stuff. An example might be useful to illustrate the slide into evil. Let us say that a woman has had bad experiences with the men in her life. She has suffered one abandonment after another until she is emotionally quite broken. At this point she is on the precipice and could easily slide one way or the other. It would be easier and less painful to embrace the lie "All men are bad" and act accordingly. This removes the pain of self doubt and allows the woman to function. Unfortunately she has taken the first step on a very perilous road. Perhaps the pain and anguish is still too much giving rise to great anger. If the woman were to express that anger by killing someone because he was a man and "all men are bad" then she would have taken a decisive step towards evil. Each further step increases the investment in the lie until the woman is quite trapped. Admitting that some men may be good would also require admitting she had committed a series of horrible acts.
So where is the evil? It is not in the act of killing because killing to defend someone's life may not be wrong at all. It is not even in the act of killing an innocent because it is possible to cause the death of an innocent through accident and this is not evil, though it is certainly a great misfortune. No, the essence of evil is the embracing of a lie and acting on it. Evil is in the heart of the person. Against such the sword of the paladin is quite useless for the only defense is that self doubt that allows you to question the motivations of the things you do.
Notice two things here....first, my example is just that...an example. It could have just as easily been any one of a hundred other things. Do not take offense at the particulars. Men have just as much capacity for evil as women. In that at least we are quite equal. Second, I did not qualify my position by saying "In my opinion..." for I really do believe what I said above. I am willing to listen to others but I am not willing to soften my stance to give you an easier time in making your arguments.
The Nature of Evil
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ValentianNizzle
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Some things just don't reduce down to a one liner...I -was- being brief...
And no...I am not a great windbag as has been suggested elsewhere...merely a little one...There are those on these forums whose talents in that area far exceed my own humble ability...
And no...I am not a great windbag as has been suggested elsewhere...merely a little one...There are those on these forums whose talents in that area far exceed my own humble ability...
Last edited by Gahani on Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I agree with your perceptions on evil. Those who just wontonly kill are a specific set of chaotic evil that is just plain stupid (*really*). I don't think ALL CE characters just go around killing others at random, and evil itself has very little overall to do with killing and death.
It has to do with a mindset based in not caring about the effect of their actions on others. A dedication to personal power no matter the cost. The desire for domination and control, with an intent on personal glory.
None of these examples necessitate murder. RPing evil can be quite a challenge, and I find that playing characters like Kel and RPing out his actions as thinking he is a "good guy" is much more realistic and true to the *real* evil out there in the world as well as found throughout literature and history.
It has to do with a mindset based in not caring about the effect of their actions on others. A dedication to personal power no matter the cost. The desire for domination and control, with an intent on personal glory.
None of these examples necessitate murder. RPing evil can be quite a challenge, and I find that playing characters like Kel and RPing out his actions as thinking he is a "good guy" is much more realistic and true to the *real* evil out there in the world as well as found throughout literature and history.
Those people who RP killing for the sake of killing and justify their actions by saying their character is evil are just RPing stupid serial killers.
On the one hand, it would seem easy enough to just role play ourselves and what we would do if thrown into our character's situations. But then, where's the fun.
On the other hand, if we immerse our minds into the role of our characters and think about what it means to be a selfish egotistical greedy bastich, we get to challenge ourselves.
It's hard to play the sneaky evil. Murken has an agenda. I've kept that secret from most people I RP with. Those who see him as a friend have no idea how well he hides his selfish self-absorbed side. This doesn't mean he has no scruples. In fact he has a personal code not unlike a Paladin or a Cleric. Evil comes in many facets and forms.
By far the hardest and least correctly RPd class is indeed the tried and true Paladin. A paragon of goodness and righteousness. What the heck is that? In this day and age where there are lawbreakers and murderers and terrorists, there is no example one can think of that exemplifies the Paladin. Even those of us who try to do good in our everyday lives drive over the speed limit, talk on our cell phones while driving, and smoke/drink to excess. Who among us hasn't passed a person stopped on the side of the road and not pulled over to assist? Even our military has those in it that abuse their power and cause misery even t those they are there to protect.
We all think we know evil. Those terrorists who blow themselves up killing their own people, hijacking planes to crash and kil thousands, or the freedom fighters who sacrifice innocents to further their causes. Yeah. The fact is those people think they are in the right and the ones they kill are the evil ones. It's a matter of perception.
Goo and evil cannot exist without the other. A balance will never be found and I agree with the general gist of this topic.
On the one hand, it would seem easy enough to just role play ourselves and what we would do if thrown into our character's situations. But then, where's the fun.
On the other hand, if we immerse our minds into the role of our characters and think about what it means to be a selfish egotistical greedy bastich, we get to challenge ourselves.
It's hard to play the sneaky evil. Murken has an agenda. I've kept that secret from most people I RP with. Those who see him as a friend have no idea how well he hides his selfish self-absorbed side. This doesn't mean he has no scruples. In fact he has a personal code not unlike a Paladin or a Cleric. Evil comes in many facets and forms.
By far the hardest and least correctly RPd class is indeed the tried and true Paladin. A paragon of goodness and righteousness. What the heck is that? In this day and age where there are lawbreakers and murderers and terrorists, there is no example one can think of that exemplifies the Paladin. Even those of us who try to do good in our everyday lives drive over the speed limit, talk on our cell phones while driving, and smoke/drink to excess. Who among us hasn't passed a person stopped on the side of the road and not pulled over to assist? Even our military has those in it that abuse their power and cause misery even t those they are there to protect.
We all think we know evil. Those terrorists who blow themselves up killing their own people, hijacking planes to crash and kil thousands, or the freedom fighters who sacrifice innocents to further their causes. Yeah. The fact is those people think they are in the right and the ones they kill are the evil ones. It's a matter of perception.
Goo and evil cannot exist without the other. A balance will never be found and I agree with the general gist of this topic.
Indeed, Viobane and Gahani.
I have played evil characters. The most wicked thing about them was to let others think that they were good, and to draw those others into acting out something they would not normally do and then leaving them with their own remorse. While my chars simply go their way having gotten whatever they wanted.
For instance the time my evil elf lady was asked to forgive an elfman for his verbal attack and she orded him to go out to the pasture and kill cows until he could bring her back two forge stones.... he did it. She took the forge stones, said fine you are forgiven.. then walked away with his best friend who she had been flirting with in his absence.
I have played evil characters. The most wicked thing about them was to let others think that they were good, and to draw those others into acting out something they would not normally do and then leaving them with their own remorse. While my chars simply go their way having gotten whatever they wanted.
For instance the time my evil elf lady was asked to forgive an elfman for his verbal attack and she orded him to go out to the pasture and kill cows until he could bring her back two forge stones.... he did it. She took the forge stones, said fine you are forgiven.. then walked away with his best friend who she had been flirting with in his absence.
If you think it is impossible -- for you, it is.
The best and noblest paladin type character Foli ever knew was a dwarf called Fifer. During one of our adventures he was chasing a bad guy through an orphanage when the mage possessed him and caused him to kill several children. Fifur recovered control and chased the mage down, killed him and severed his head. Upon returning to the city, he immediately went to the captain of the guard, dropped the head on his desk and proceeded to turn himself in for murder. After much arguing on the part of his friends, Fifur was sentenced to 30 days, more to keep an eye on him than anything else. Of course Foli Cren broke into the jail that night, had a brief visit and dropped off a case of ale. There was no question of busting him out...that would have been an offense to Fifur's honor. Here's to ya Fifur...wherever ye are!!
I've been having fun playing the dimitted side of good with Beldin. He's not too smart, but has the very demeanor of good. He is always trying to help others and does not judge their actions unless they harm someone else. Even then, he tries to talk and compromise to reach a desirable conclusion.
Lawful can stand for organization and following rules, or it can stand for sticking to a personal code of ethics beyond simple rules of the land. I agree that paladins are misplayed much of the time.
Kel had a nice theological argument with a paladin who judged him after a good olde detect evil. Yes, he sets that thing off the charts, but he follows Eon and sees himself as being a faithful follower. Perhaps in that his blackguard nature is more true and just than many paladins who fight anyone who comes up as evil on their little "evil radar".
Lawful can stand for organization and following rules, or it can stand for sticking to a personal code of ethics beyond simple rules of the land. I agree that paladins are misplayed much of the time.
Kel had a nice theological argument with a paladin who judged him after a good olde detect evil. Yes, he sets that thing off the charts, but he follows Eon and sees himself as being a faithful follower. Perhaps in that his blackguard nature is more true and just than many paladins who fight anyone who comes up as evil on their little "evil radar".
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Jazelle
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Evil and good are a after expression of facts long done with so must be labled.
Does the evil person think they are being evil at the time? Not likely. Most of them have a goal that is self centered and they go after it at all costs. They feel others are in their way and they remove them. Most evil people think they are doing a service or even good deeds.
The same applies for good only in most cases they do not really realize they are doing good only that something needs to be done and they are trying to make things better for others. They are not selfish and give of themselves expecting nothing back in return.
I have played good, neural and evil chars throughout the years I have played D&D and RPG. Most folks love my evil chars because they are often so sweet. But they use the law against those who displease them. They twist and use other's words to make trouble and keep it from themselves. When asked to help they ask for money, make the person subservent to them or ignor them and walk away.
Neutral is harder to do but then again we do it all the days of our lives so I guess that is why in RPG it is harder to stay in the middle of the road. Ortelassa is neutral but has to walk the pedulam of doing good and being indifferent to others. No not evil just not understanding what the fuss is about as a neutral drow would be.
Good now that is easy to play. Often I do the self sacrificying kind of char who makes mistakes but is there for others even if it means their lives. No I never play blind goodness I play shades of gray. I do not limiting my chars too much and wish them to have flaws.
Chars that deveope from one extream to a mid ground are the best ones because they show they have learned not everything is black and white. Often young chars start out black and white and as they age in books they go to shades of gray. I hope this helps.
Does the evil person think they are being evil at the time? Not likely. Most of them have a goal that is self centered and they go after it at all costs. They feel others are in their way and they remove them. Most evil people think they are doing a service or even good deeds.
The same applies for good only in most cases they do not really realize they are doing good only that something needs to be done and they are trying to make things better for others. They are not selfish and give of themselves expecting nothing back in return.
I have played good, neural and evil chars throughout the years I have played D&D and RPG. Most folks love my evil chars because they are often so sweet. But they use the law against those who displease them. They twist and use other's words to make trouble and keep it from themselves. When asked to help they ask for money, make the person subservent to them or ignor them and walk away.
Neutral is harder to do but then again we do it all the days of our lives so I guess that is why in RPG it is harder to stay in the middle of the road. Ortelassa is neutral but has to walk the pedulam of doing good and being indifferent to others. No not evil just not understanding what the fuss is about as a neutral drow would be.
Good now that is easy to play. Often I do the self sacrificying kind of char who makes mistakes but is there for others even if it means their lives. No I never play blind goodness I play shades of gray. I do not limiting my chars too much and wish them to have flaws.
Chars that deveope from one extream to a mid ground are the best ones because they show they have learned not everything is black and white. Often young chars start out black and white and as they age in books they go to shades of gray. I hope this helps.
The world is a strange place.
So far most of the posts here do not differ greatly from my own views on the subject of evil. My guess is that it permeates our culture. Of course this begs a very big question...Where did the concept of good, neutral and evil found in the DnD manuals come from? It seems to be somewhat counter cultural from my point of view.
It does not seem to be the Manichean view exactly with its co-created good and evil constantly at war with one another. Unfortunately I know little of the Buddhist/Hindu concept to say anything...
I mean, what were these guys thinking of when they wrote the manuals?
It does not seem to be the Manichean view exactly with its co-created good and evil constantly at war with one another. Unfortunately I know little of the Buddhist/Hindu concept to say anything...
I mean, what were these guys thinking of when they wrote the manuals?
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Jazelle
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It comes from mythology. Most all of D&D can be found in one religion or another. Also fairy tales and hero stories told in all cultures. The real world is gray but to a child or those being entertained black and white works well. Folks want to hear about going against the odds and know who is on what side since in their real life it is hard to tell at times.
So you have the evil giant and the brave shepard who saves his people. The bad little girl who learns a lesson of fear after breaking into someone's house and sleeping on their bed. The brave knight who go against all odds to find the maiden in the tower and marry her.
Over all when we are entertained or dreaming we wish to have a uplifting experience that will help us get through our days. We wish to know there is hope and possiblities.... besides enjoying a good story told around a fire or curling up with a good book.
So you have the evil giant and the brave shepard who saves his people. The bad little girl who learns a lesson of fear after breaking into someone's house and sleeping on their bed. The brave knight who go against all odds to find the maiden in the tower and marry her.
Over all when we are entertained or dreaming we wish to have a uplifting experience that will help us get through our days. We wish to know there is hope and possiblities.... besides enjoying a good story told around a fire or curling up with a good book.
The world is a strange place.
I think that Law and Chaos gives Good and Evil different slants. I think overall, the D&D system isn't TOO bad, it's just heavily interpreted. Similar to the idea that anyone playing CN is insane. That's not necessarily true, but is a template for a personality based on this alignment. Just as a justicar is a template for LG. I think that overall, the biggest problem is the stereotyping involved with different alignments, and the worst being the extremes of LG and CE.
And for reference, since it's related, I stand by my support of Stephen R Donaldson's Law and Chaos interpretations:
http://thewastelands.org/viewtopic.php?t=904&highlight=
And for reference, since it's related, I stand by my support of Stephen R Donaldson's Law and Chaos interpretations:
http://thewastelands.org/viewtopic.php?t=904&highlight=