Server future enquiry.

[Savagefool]

So I had an enquiry into the future server direction, a swift chat with Driller and I thought it would be useful to collate peoples thoughts on the matter.
So I may be wrong but here is how I see the server at the moment, In regards to building and balance. Let me try to post my thoughts on a page.

Lately I've just wanted to break out of the mold.
I can already see a build trend and I haven’t been here that long (5 weeks).
It’s like the server forces you to build as maybe 5 things. (Cleric, Fighter DD rogue, RDD mix, Wizard and AA)

Don't get me wrong I love the balance between AC and AB from a PVP perspective due to the inclusion of 20 ab weapons.
And actually sometimes that brings forth builds that could never actually exist (Pure rogues with 60 ab, jeez!).
So in that regards it is super fun. But I think there are multiple options open that could do this better.

But lets talk PVE before I get to my main point/suggestion.
There are two sides to this, while the availability of 20ab weapons does open the viability of some builds it greatly imbalances the other classes.
And at the same time, enhances some others. It has, for instance, lowered the need to take a build with cleric in a CMR for example.
But at the same time it imbalances the PVE aspect. AC is next to useless because of the combination of really high ab on some mobs/bosses plus the lack of heal potions. So DD has become the most prevalent build and only viable way to tank.
I also get the thought behind that, in order to bring the traditional party balance and open up the need for a healer on boss runs. It's a really nice idea.
1 is not an automatic failure either so the luck aspect on either sides has been lowered. The benefit of that is weaknesses appear in every single build and I actually enjoy that fact.

So finally we get to my actual point: There’s not much incentive to build something different, like a ranger, barbarian, COT or a shifter.
I’m suggesting that you allow us to build what we want alignment wise and/or create incentives for unused classes so we don’t get build stagnation.
Or even balance them as required. Through special gear, nerfs to the overpowered or a complete rethink of the individual boons to each class.

Originally my intent was to make a paladin kobold so I can get rid of some of the reliance on sneak as most bosses are immune.

Also I didn’t wanna be just another DD rogue with edodge, there were 4 of them on yesterday sigh*
So I intended to make a DD risen lord which, has some steep disadvantages (not being able to heal or use items), but is abit more fun and can deal some decent damage to offset that.

The current ethos behind the rules is that alignment changes are not allowed to enable a build.
I can see both sides of the argument for this.
Against. Paladin bard rdd is just so ridiculous and overpowered.
For. Allows you to play variations of shifter/bard/druid that makes sense.

Even if this is now allowed with the exceptions of certain mixes so that we don't get some of the same OP builds filling the server or forcing the QM/DM to overshoot bosses in order to provide a challenge. Though i'd argue that's already the case now.

I dunno it's just some thoughts I had, the 40s are off always doing their own thing when I go to the town crier i'm stood alone for half an hour like... meh.. i'll just make something else aha. The fun for me is building something new or unique that may or may not work here, and the journey from 1 to 40.

Also I suggest perhaps some ways to sink some time, or play after 40. I mean, currently; the road to 40 is quick, the road to crafting whatever you want is also quick. There's not much to do at 40 except "have the chance to loot better gear". Maybe something like... gain 40 mil xp and unlock a new race that you can now take as a new player with the exception that you can't bank xp and have to start that toon from scratch (that may also open up other build viable options), or with similar conditions, access to an build or class item (e.g. ranger feat: favour enemy (insert race on server) or item that modifies barbarian thundering rage to add an extra element to main weapon) .. You get the idea.

What do you guys think? What is the future direction for the server or.. lemme ask you this, in a perfect world with 200 drillers, what would you wanna see implemented or the server eventually become?

[Savagefool]

There's a lot to address, address whichever you want; this is conversation starter.

[driller]

What bosses are you referencing?

Originally my intent was to make a paladin kobold so I can get rid of some of the reliance on sneak as most bosses are immune.

[Savagefool]

Oh, I guess they aren’t bosses per se, I mean things like the dragons and Demi liches. Especially Demi liches. I feel like I need something that can damage most things as much as I can because Shifter, epic kobold, has no “save yourself” heal items/epic dodge or defensive capabilities (ac is in like the 45s at level 40) is a pain in the ass if things are essentially immune to most of my damage. When I say immune, I guess I mean has true sight also. Though you can probably disregard that comment because I guess you’re not meant to fight bosses on your own either way.

[Yunim]

The reason that certain PvM builds are popular on the server is because they are fully optimised for the high end PvM runs on the server (and also because they're posted for everyone to see on these forums). I've been on successful runs with a party of 3 DPS toons, so a fully optimised party certainly isn't required to beat the high end bosses. For example, there is no reason that you can't attempt to kill the Witch with a mage-only party, honestly it sounds like a fun challenge to me. However, in general, people want to finish runs as quickly and efficiently as possible, and a mage-only party isn't going to do that.

I don't have a problem with +20AB weapons, it just means that you need to change your building approach.

I agree that AC is useless in PvM, but that just means less forging for my PvM chars so I don't really mind. It is theoretically possible to AC tank high end runs, but it's nowhere near as reliable as DR tanking so there's no real point.

The only alignment restrictions are on the Lawful/Chaotic axis, so you can already make a Paladin kobold. You can change your alignment along the Good/Evil axis by talking to the beggar in the Keep. Personally I don't mind the restrictions since the only decent build that is restricted is Pal/Bard/RDD, you're stuck with making either a Pal/Sorc/RDD or Bard/BG/RDD.

I do think that Barbarians could do with a boost, since there isn't any reason to make one when you can easily fit +12STR +12CON onto gear.
On other servers I've played on Rage has given an AB boost, but with +20AB weapons that isn't useful on BSK.
Maybe add 5% physical DI to Rage, or add 20/- Damage Resistance to Mighty Rage so that it's better than Combat Gloves?

CoT saves aren't as useful when you can hit the +20 saves cap with gear, but the class still has it's uses for certain builds.
Maybe buff Divine Wrath to 2 rounds/CHA modifier or something, but honestly I don't think that it needs much of a boost.

Rangers are perfect the way they are, they don't need to be changed.

Shifters are also a useful class now that all items stack, but ultimately they're still Shifters.
I took a Stone Golem tank to fight the Witch and it worked as well as I expected, but overall the benefits of the build didn't outweigh the negatives of being a Shifter.

Assassins could also do with a boost, especially since EE changed Death Attack to only trigger once rather than up to four times.
Currently Rogue is better in practically every single way.

HS and PDK are also fairly useless, but they're fairly useless on most servers so I'm not sure if they're worth buffing.

Other than buffing Barbarians and Assassins, I don't think there is really anything that needs to be changed with regards to classes, gear, or mobs.
It might take some time to adapt your usual builds to the server, but I don't think there are too many things that are unbalanced.

[Douglas Thurman]

So as a caster player, I've noticed a few things now that the Epic Mummy summon is pretty nicely adjusted...

Sorcerers don't need to waste as many slots on buffs for the mummy as before. Haste and maxed stat buffs aren't needed, along with True sight. I'm sticking with Ultravision and see invis, saving the higher slot for something more damaging. I also don't have to keep GMW and Keen around anymore.

Bigby's spells seem to serve more usefully now against things like Umgahs and other high end MOBs. Has Forceful Hand been buffed because I used it against pretty much everything except Dragons and it hits effectively. Not sure on this, has anyone else used the spell and noticed it?

I'll think of more stuff...

[Savagefool]

Sorry been stuck at work! Thanks for the discussion!

Ah no, I’m not allowed to do the builds that aren’t on the chaotic axis either. Already asked the staff. So I guess you slightly agree with the lack of build options but are alright with it. I didn’t think of that from your perspective tbh till now, thanks for the insight! There are quite a few more builds other than pally bard rdd that’s viable with restrictions lifted. In my whole opinion I think it’s a needless restriction. Apart from the pally bard rdd mix which i’d Still block aha.

Ahhh hs and pdk has been jumped on some server, though.. they aren’t in nwn anymore with the exception of HG which doesn’t work with EE anyway. For HS I’ve seen boots that allow an extra attack, custom element, potions that add ab not part of the cap. For pdk I’ve seen epic haste within a range, a special summon, a shapeshift unlocked etc.

I need to test that shifter thing, last I checked bracers didn’t work, only gloves. I do wish nwn handles shifter better, only ever seen one server completely overhaul shifter shapes and abilities.

What about druids and their spells?

I’ve enjoyed playing a mage too douglas! The summons have been nicely and well balanced! Would be cool to have a way to change elements using on pew pew spells or something like that and allow abit more customisation. I can think of quite a few ways to do this that could be fun.

[itchyfunk]

A little late to the conversation...

Honestly, I do have a problem with +20AB weapons. I feel it essentially negates the value of a lot of builds. I think the server would be more balanced if it were tuned toward +5AC max on items and +10AB (or even *gasp* +5EN) on weapons. With that spells that boosted AB, bard songs and other class abilities would actually be meaningful. I find it sort of sad that you can use you class abilities to effect while leveling; but once you get to level-40 and forge a weapon, they become meaningless because of the hard-cap at +20.

I do recognize that the difficulty of many of the bosses and end-game areas have been adjusted for the current status quo; but I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if other builds had value vs pretty much WM and AA (and maybe Ranger) being the only meaningful way to max AB on a toon.

As an aside: PDK's 128DC fear can be humorous... probably more of a PvP thing.

[driller]

It's +20 due to the AC vs AB bell curve. I can lower the AC of the bosses, that would be much simpilier fix.

A little late to the conversation...

Honestly, I do have a problem with +20AB weapons. I feel it essentially negates the value of a lot of builds. I think the server would be more balanced if it were tuned toward +5AC max on items and +10AB (or even *gasp* +5EN) on weapons. With that spells that boosted AB, bard songs and other class abilities would actually be meaningful. I find it sort of sad that you can use you class abilities to effect while leveling; but once you get to level-40 and forge a weapon, they become meaningless because of the hard-cap at +20.

I do recognize that the difficulty of many of the bosses and end-game areas have been adjusted for the current status quo; but I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if other builds had value vs pretty much WM and AA (and maybe Ranger) being the only meaningful way to max AB on a toon.

As an aside: PDK's 128DC fear can be humorous... probably more of a PvP thing.

[Cornflower]

It's +20 due to the AC vs AB bell curve. I can lower the AC of the bosses, that would be much simpilier fix.

Yes please. Unless you have a very optimized (=boring and the same as everyone else) it can be very hard to hit the bosses.

[Savagefool]

It's +20 due to the AC vs AB bell curve. I can lower the AC of the bosses, that would be much simpilier fix.

A little late to the conversation...

Honestly, I do have a problem with +20AB weapons. I feel it essentially negates the value of a lot of builds. I think the server would be more balanced if it were tuned toward +5AC max on items and +10AB (or even *gasp* +5EN) on weapons. With that spells that boosted AB, bard songs and other class abilities would actually be meaningful. I find it sort of sad that you can use you class abilities to effect while leveling; but once you get to level-40 and forge a weapon, they become meaningless because of the hard-cap at +20.

I do recognize that the difficulty of many of the bosses and end-game areas have been adjusted for the current status quo; but I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if other builds had value vs pretty much WM and AA (and maybe Ranger) being the only meaningful way to max AB on a toon.

As an aside: PDK's 128DC fear can be humorous... probably more of a PvP thing.

How about nwnx or something to edit the base cap in the module? That could solve the problem too

[Savagefool]

A little late to the conversation...

Honestly, I do have a problem with +20AB weapons. I feel it essentially negates the value of a lot of builds. I think the server would be more balanced if it were tuned toward +5AC max on items and +10AB (or even *gasp* +5EN) on weapons. With that spells that boosted AB, bard songs and other class abilities would actually be meaningful. I find it sort of sad that you can use you class abilities to effect while leveling; but once you get to level-40 and forge a weapon, they become meaningless because of the hard-cap at +20.

I do recognize that the difficulty of many of the bosses and end-game areas have been adjusted for the current status quo; but I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if other builds had value vs pretty much WM and AA (and maybe Ranger) being the only meaningful way to max AB on a toon.

As an aside: PDK's 128DC fear can be humorous... probably more of a PvP thing.

This was the other direction for my argument, nicely put! I think that there are things that can be done to change the little overpowered things, everything’s about balance after all.

Could also remove the +20 and add just a base overall buff to players. I saw a thing in a server once where after a certain level your character would have its BAB or whatever changed occordingly.

[Savagefool]

Though I would suppose a custom character checker would be then be required.

[Savagefool]

I think another idea would be to keep those sort of ab buffs class specific on gear? I dunno there’s plenty of ways. I had a thought to do an analysis on ab/ac values with all the common builds and more usefully suggest a way forward with the balance. I’m working everyday for the next two weeks but I’ll get to it once I have free time.

[driller]

What is the issue with +20?

I think another idea would be to keep those sort of ab buffs class specific on gear? I dunno there’s plenty of ways. I had a thought to do an analysis on ab/ac values with all the common builds and more usefully suggest a way forward with the balance. I’m working everyday for the next two weeks but I’ll get to it once I have free time.