Some thoughts on End-Game

[TedRo]

This server is far and away the best experience I have played on NwN since I started in 2002.
That being said I feel like I have a lot to say, but I've been hesitant because I feel like I'll catch a lot of flack
These are all just opinions, and also not asked for, but I'd rather say my piece than just be silently annoyed.
I appreciate the world Driller has put together for us, and I only have the utmost respect for him. I'll try to avoid spoilers...

1. Farming: need more options than Umgah.
Ignoring the fact you can solo farm Umgah starting in early 20 levels, I feel it is both unrewarding and joyless. Killing a boss is worth about 6-8 hours of farming Umgahs (in terms of Forge Stones). I would love the ability to go somewhere very punishing with my level 40 geared character, possibly requiring a small group, for a better loot experience. There is a secret level that almost feels like what I want in terms of difficulty, but the rewards are even worse than Umgah.
I'm mostly desperate for a wider variety of constructive things I can be doing with my time after hitting 40 and all the bosses are dead

2. End Game Bosses
2A) Only 10 people can kill these per reset. In small groups these fights feel very good, but as of this moment everyone is encouraged to mob these upon reset as a full group simply because there is not an option to do it later with less people. These fights feel trivial as a 10 party group when led by 1-3 experienced players. Is it possible to add additional mobs based on group size? A spreading debuff? AoE damage? Punish some kind of mistake?

2B) Bosses are mechanically not challenging. I can only suggest changes that would be more work for Driller to implement tho, which I'm hesitant to do. Right now there are only 3(2?) builds that pull their weight: STR maxed WMs, 1 DwD tank, 1 Healer just so tank doesn't have to worry about using consumables.

Edit: I'm going to go ahead and say I think all Greater Restoration scrolls, Mass Heal scrolls, Greater res scrolls and Rod should be removed from the game. Almost every player will probably have a gut reaction noooooooo but I think they have been coddled by the inability to suffer penalty from making a mistake. This would require some serious rethinking from players how to handle bosses and probably some form of aggro management for bosses. If I get rezzed by a fighter it should be to 1, not to full.

2C) Boss Loot: Besides a few forge stones, mostly just garbage. I would love a way to turn in or redeem 20 kills for 1 piece of boss-specific loot. I'm probably biased because of my terrible luck but man, it does not feel good. After 60 or so boss kills to have only looted a few forge stones and effectively gold, I'm starting to wonder why I'm going any more. Maybe a communal drop of 1 high tier (increased % of boss specific) item(s) the group can roll for could be effective?

Occasionally I have seen boss loot reward players standard loot as if they had killed a Kobold, which I'm sure is a bug, but honestly has just saved me a few trips to the vendor.

3. PvP
3A) Honestly it doesn't exist. Intentional? Is this supposed to be just an RP element? Any plans on any zone at all in the future rewarding PvP? Almost everyone I have interacted with at this point has admitted they've wanted some kind of PvP experience. Many people are making gear/builds, or holding onto items they think will be useful for it.

3B) A small group of players tried to make Blackrose the lawless hostile environment it seemed to want to be but nobody found that satisfying. There's generally no reason to even be there. Dying isn't punishing at all, you can just Recall stone back in the middle of it. Time-stop should be addressed, it isn't even fun to use.

3C) If players dropped a named head or something on death it'd reward RP PvP. Maybe the Kazranite temple wants 10 Vor follower's heads/ day for a random Forge Stone. Guilds could put out hits as I know the Kazranites have attempted to do. But what kind of ambush could there be when you have to ask someone in advance if you can ambush them? Is it possible to make PvP more of an Opt-out structure? You could put opt-out in your character description, maybe make an item to edit your description to opt out.

4. Forging

An extremely innovative system that should frankly be in the base game. Super elegant, very rewarding. That being said, I'd love a way to use more of a forge stone to increase the odds of getting an item made the way I want to. This is mostly a preference, but I'd pay a hefty premium to not brick a treasured item.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If this sounds like a lot, it's only because that's how much I care. These are my biggest concerns I have in the 500 (rapidly increasing) hours I've been playing here. I guess I wanted to spark some discussion for solutions among the rest of the server, and ask Driller if concerns of this scale are worth bringing up? I even want to ask if there's some tangible way I could help.

In a world where we've lost the magic that made MMOs and ARPGs great, Blackstone Keep has been a glorious respite where I can bask in nostalgia and make new friends that feel like old friends.

- TedRo (Dev)

[Sway]

I agree 1000% Dev,

Brought some of this to their attention couple weeks ago, hopefully they digest and see people are getting bored of doing the same bosss runs. Literally we have people logging on for an hour or 2, just to do Shal, witch, vor.. then logging off for the day. Unless you're making a new toon, your daily gameplay can be very repetitive.

I agree that this is the best server i've played since i started NwN back in '06. Just needs more stuff to do once you're pretty maxed out.

[Cornflower]

I agree somewhat. I'm not going to post an essay, just a few of my own points:

A. I like "quality-of-life" items.
Things like the electrifier is great. If I have a wand of Bull's Strength with 10, 100 or 250 charges has nothing to do with overpowered or abuse, it's a quality of life thing. I would like to keep those.

B. I want all the quests to be solo-able.
With the exception of the final shrine, I want all quests to be solo-able if you have a good build. But, that would required more farming/hunting areas with challenges for the high-level characters. So I agree with TedRo, item 1.

C. Bosses are too challenging.
I disagree with TedRo item 2. Most bosses are very challenging unless you have an optimized build of some kind (F/WM/R or Pally/Monk/yadayada or something else). Try running a pure cleric or pure paladin against the bosses. Not gonna happen.

D. Loot could be more useful with the random property remover active.
I agree with TedRo item 2C. If the random property remover is nerfed, lots of the formerly interesting loot is just so much unusuable garbage. If you can't feed it to the electrifier either, it's just gold and could be replaced with it directly. The thing I really liked about the randomly generated high-end loot that was introduced a while back, was that you could get very creative. If you were lucky with the Random property remover, you could create some very interesting things that you could build on with your forge stones. That was one of the high-points in my opinion, go out farming some area, catch some loot, see what it could be made into. Very nice. Could we keep that? Perhaps only nerfing the Random property remover on specific limitations?

E. PvP sucks.
I really hope PvP is zoned so that I can enjoy the full game without having to be killed by some guy with a completely different view on what is fun or not. It's so sad that I can only visit Blackrose merchant when there's nobody around. So, I somewhat agree with TedRo item 3.

Also, I totally agree with TedRo when he says BSK is a great place to be. Thank you.

[Kane0]

1. Farming
Always agree with more content (appropriately challenging and rewarding of course). To suggest something more specifically, things that aren't 1-2 bruiser/archer/backstabber types at a time.

2. End Game Bosses
I don't have the experience to comment on boss fights, however I agree with the distinct trend towards 2-3 particular builds. I get that a fighter 40 shouldn't be as good as a fully tricked out multiclass build, but that shouldn't mean they can't get the job done.

Greater Restoration scrolls, Mass Heal scrolls, Greater res scrolls and Rod should be removed from the game
I can see your argument for high end play, but that doesn't translate to the rest of the experience. Perhaps reduce or remove their functionality in areas that are specifically designed for party play rather than EVERYWHERE. Would also make for a nice distinction between what quests/areas are supposed to be solo-able and which ones aren't.

2C) Boss Loot
The grind is real, not much you can do to escape that. However I have also seen some wild variability in loot. Level 30-40 critters giving out the same 1d4 fire weapons that you get from zombies and goblins just feels off. Perhaps raise the floor of the loot table a bit to match the rising ceiling.

3. PvP
I don't PvP, so can't comment. I would argue against making PvP a required part of any 'important' section like shops, crafting, quests, etc as it would severely turn off players that aren't interested in PvP.

4. Forging
I like that idea, using two or three of the same type of forge stone to boost the result (though not beyond the maximum).

[Sorcy Sid]

We are on the same page.

A) The electrifier is great. The cap should be, at the very least, closer to 25 charges.

B) I know we wont get everything solo-able, but instance based solo quests with appropriate bosses would be good challenges.

D) The RPR wand is just too cool to lose. It added another dimension to crafting things that were class restricted while keeping the luck of the roll on it.

I agree somewhat. I'm not going to post an essay, just a few of my own points:

A. I like "quality-of-life" items.
Things like the electrifier is great. If I have a wand of Bull's Strength with 10, 100 or 250 charges has nothing to do with overpowered or abuse, it's a quality of life thing. I would like to keep those.

B. I want all the quests to be solo-able.
With the exception of the final shrine, I want all quests to be solo-able if you have a good build. But, that would required more farming/hunting areas with challenges for the high-level characters. So I agree with TedRo, item 1.

C. Bosses are too challenging.
I disagree with TedRo item 2. Most bosses are very challenging unless you have an optimized build of some kind (F/WM/R or Pally/Monk/yadayada or something else). Try running a pure cleric or pure paladin against the bosses. Not gonna happen.

D. Loot could be more useful with the random property remover active.
I agree with TedRo item 2C. If the random property remover is nerfed, lots of the formerly interesting loot is just so much unusuable garbage. If you can't feed it to the electrifier either, it's just gold and could be replaced with it directly. The thing I really liked about the randomly generated high-end loot that was introduced a while back, was that you could get very creative. If you were lucky with the Random property remover, you could create some very interesting things that you could build on with your forge stones. That was one of the high-points in my opinion, go out farming some area, catch some loot, see what it could be made into. Very nice. Could we keep that? Perhaps only nerfing the Random property remover on specific limitations?

E. PvP sucks.
I really hope PvP is zoned so that I can enjoy the full game without having to be killed by some guy with a completely different view on what is fun or not. It's so sad that I can only visit Blackrose merchant when there's nobody around. So, I somewhat agree with TedRo item 3.

Also, I totally agree with TedRo when he says BSK is a great place to be. Thank you.

[Tard]

I believe that in addition to removing Scrolls such as Greater Restoration, Time stops, among others, removing the rods, sequencer items should only be sharpeners and can not put an epic magic in it (as it unbalances caster classes ...) WM and DD !!! This needs to be reviewed and changed urgently !!! Another important fact, in my opinion is quite cool to create faction mode after level 40, even being divided as it is already present on the server !!!

[Gimili]

This server is far and away the best experience I have played on NwN since I started in 2002.
That being said I feel like I have a lot to say, but I've been hesitant because I feel like I'll catch a lot of flack
These are all just opinions, and also not asked for, but I'd rather say my piece than just be silently annoyed.
I appreciate the world Driller has put together for us, and I only have the utmost respect for him. I'll try to avoid spoilers...

1. Farming: need more options than Umgah.
Ignoring the fact you can solo farm Umgah starting in early 20 levels, I feel it is both unrewarding and joyless. Killing a boss is worth about 6-8 hours of farming Umgahs (in terms of Forge Stones). I would love the ability to go somewhere very punishing with my level 40 geared character, possibly requiring a small group, for a better loot experience. There is a secret level that almost feels like what I want in terms of difficulty, but the rewards are even worse than Umgah.
I'm mostly desperate for a wider variety of constructive things I can be doing with my time after hitting 40 and all the bosses are dead

2. End Game Bosses
2A) Only 10 people can kill these per reset. In small groups these fights feel very good, but as of this moment everyone is encouraged to mob these upon reset as a full group simply because there is not an option to do it later with less people. These fights feel trivial as a 10 party group when led by 1-3 experienced players. Is it possible to add additional mobs based on group size? A spreading debuff? AoE damage? Punish some kind of mistake?

2B) Bosses are mechanically not challenging. I can only suggest changes that would be more work for Driller to implement tho, which I'm hesitant to do. Right now there are only 3(2?) builds that pull their weight: STR maxed WMs, 1 DwD tank, 1 Healer just so tank doesn't have to worry about using consumables.

Edit: I'm going to go ahead and say I think all Greater Restoration scrolls, Mass Heal scrolls, Greater res scrolls and Rod should be removed from the game. Almost every player will probably have a gut reaction noooooooo but I think they have been coddled by the inability to suffer penalty from making a mistake. This would require some serious rethinking from players how to handle bosses and probably some form of aggro management for bosses. If I get rezzed by a fighter it should be to 1, not to full.

2C) Boss Loot: Besides a few forge stones, mostly just garbage. I would love a way to turn in or redeem 20 kills for 1 piece of boss-specific loot. I'm probably biased because of my terrible luck but man, it does not feel good. After 60 or so boss kills to have only looted a few forge stones and effectively gold, I'm starting to wonder why I'm going any more. Maybe a communal drop of 1 high tier (increased % of boss specific) item(s) the group can roll for could be effective?

Occasionally I have seen boss loot reward players standard loot as if they had killed a Kobold, which I'm sure is a bug, but honestly has just saved me a few trips to the vendor.

3. PvP
3A) Honestly it doesn't exist. Intentional? Is this supposed to be just an RP element? Any plans on any zone at all in the future rewarding PvP? Almost everyone I have interacted with at this point has admitted they've wanted some kind of PvP experience. Many people are making gear/builds, or holding onto items they think will be useful for it.

3B) A small group of players tried to make Blackrose the lawless hostile environment it seemed to want to be but nobody found that satisfying. There's generally no reason to even be there. Dying isn't punishing at all, you can just Recall stone back in the middle of it. Time-stop should be addressed, it isn't even fun to use.

3C) If players dropped a named head or something on death it'd reward RP PvP. Maybe the Kazranite temple wants 10 Vor follower's heads/ day for a random Forge Stone. Guilds could put out hits as I know the Kazranites have attempted to do. But what kind of ambush could there be when you have to ask someone in advance if you can ambush them? Is it possible to make PvP more of an Opt-out structure? You could put opt-out in your character description, maybe make an item to edit your description to opt out.

4. Forging

An extremely innovative system that should frankly be in the base game. Super elegant, very rewarding. That being said, I'd love a way to use more of a forge stone to increase the odds of getting an item made the way I want to. This is mostly a preference, but I'd pay a hefty premium to not brick a treasured item.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If this sounds like a lot, it's only because that's how much I care. These are my biggest concerns I have in the 500 (rapidly increasing) hours I've been playing here. I guess I wanted to spark some discussion for solutions among the rest of the server, and ask Driller if concerns of this scale are worth bringing up? I even want to ask if there's some tangible way I could help.

In a world where we've lost the magic that made MMOs and ARPGs great, Blackstone Keep has been a glorious respite where I can bask in nostalgia and make new friends that feel like old friends.

- TedRo (Dev)

This should be put in the suggestion Tab. Some your Points. are valid, although I absolutely disagree with you on Ugmah as well as dropping G.R. Scrolls. Those two things I Dissent.

In regards to Forging, I would not change that system either its supposed to be incredibly hard, and I promise you I've ruined some amazing items in my time.