Random Item Property Remover Nerf

[driller]

I see no issues with this.

If Class restrictions are absolutely out the window, then as Yunim has already suggested, having an Improved Invisibility and Negative Energy Protection option for non-UMD users would be useful (e.g high level Barbs/Monks/Fighters), as these buffs are currently used frequently.

[Yunim]

This is unfortunate and I wish wasn't the case. Why are those things necessary? Why invest in the Self Concealment feats or rare and expensive negative protection gear when you can just wand it?

Self Concealment is almost always a waste of feats unless Improved Invisibility has been nerfed.
I can think of one very good reason to invest in those feats on BSK, but for PvM they're useless.

The only Negative Immunity I've seen on items is Paladin's Emblem, a 25% DI Tower Shield. Not all builds can use it and, although I haven't seen one since the item nerf, I imagine that it is now a 5% DI Tower Shield. 5% DI and 10/- DR won't do anything to defend against Harm, the main reason to have NEP.

[Kane0]

Only tangentially related, do we have a clear baseline that is being operated on? What sort of build/gear are we talking about when we say 'viable' and what sort of context are we talking about?

Might just be me, I just like being clear before I talk balance.

[The Flying Rodent]

Only tangentially related, do we have a clear baseline that is being operated on? What sort of build/gear are we talking about when we say 'viable' and what sort of context are we talking about?

Might just be me, I just like being clear before I talk balance.

There basically is a baseline of gear that people use for high-end PvM, yes. However posting it here even for discussion about ‘balance’ would most likely constitute spoilers.

Suffice to say: Improved Invisibility and Negative Energy Protection are invaluable buffs; pretty powerful at any stage of the game, and easily obtainable for wand users or arcane casters (ergo, anybody that isn’t a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk, as Divine Wands straddle Cleric/Druid/Ranger/Paladin, arcane casters get Shadow Sheild which acts as an alternative to NEP, and Bards/Rogues get UMD).

The RIPR allowed for Barbs/Fighters/Monks, which typically aren’t high end PvM builds anyway (more created for fun here), to not have to miss out on hear buffs. In addition to being average power characters generally. My concern was almost purely about these classes getting stuffed by the change.

[Kane0]

There basically is a baseline of gear that people use for high-end PvM, yes. However posting it here even for discussion about ‘balance’ would most likely constitute spoilers.

Suffice to say: Improved Invisibility and Negative Energy Protection are invaluable buffs; pretty powerful at any stage of the game, and easily obtainable for wand users or arcane casters (ergo, anybody that isn’t a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk, as Divine Wands straddle Cleric/Druid/Ranger/Paladin, arcane casters get Shadow Sheild which acts as an alternative to NEP, and Bards/Rogues get UMD).

The RIPR allowed for Barbs/Fighters/Monks, which typically aren’t high end PvM builds anyway (more created for fun here), to not have to miss out on hear buffs. In addition to being average power characters generally. My concern was almost purely about these classes getting stuffed by the change.

Understood, we could use generalities though. Things like 'bruisers should look for +X ab before gear' or 'dont try to tank without Y AC or Z damage Soak'.
If we're worried about those classes specifically, we could introduce some tailor made gear or balance changes for them to compensate? But on the other hand then everyone has access to it, and when everybody has it we risk power creep.
Perhaps instead we take a look at why those particular things are so desirable and adjust that rather than try to limit their availability. Which can include a combination of buffs, nerfs and alternatives.

[The Flying Rodent]

There basically is a baseline of gear that people use for high-end PvM, yes. However posting it here even for discussion about ‘balance’ would most likely constitute spoilers.

Suffice to say: Improved Invisibility and Negative Energy Protection are invaluable buffs; pretty powerful at any stage of the game, and easily obtainable for wand users or arcane casters (ergo, anybody that isn’t a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk, as Divine Wands straddle Cleric/Druid/Ranger/Paladin, arcane casters get Shadow Sheild which acts as an alternative to NEP, and Bards/Rogues get UMD).

The RIPR allowed for Barbs/Fighters/Monks, which typically aren’t high end PvM builds anyway (more created for fun here), to not have to miss out on hear buffs. In addition to being average power characters generally. My concern was almost purely about these classes getting stuffed by the change.

Understood, we could use generalities though. Things like 'bruisers should look for +X ab before gear' or 'dont try to tank without Y AC or Z damage Soak'.
If we're worried about those classes specifically, we could introduce some tailor made gear or balance changes for them to compensate? But on the other hand then everyone has access to it, and when everybody has it we risk power creep.
Perhaps instead we take a look at why those particular things are so desirable and adjust that rather than try to limit their availability. Which can include a combination of buffs, nerfs and alternatives.

The easiest solution to the problem would be just to have a high - level buffing wand that offers these spells with no UMD restriction, to take the place of crafted wands that had these buffs and the class restrictions removed. Perhaps as a non-drop quest reward so that people couldn’t transfer it to low level characters.

This would involve a lot less work than rethinking how an entire group of spells/classes/opponents work and spending an exorbitant amount of time and energy trying to balance them.

[Kane0]

I like that idea, but I think people have already voiced concern that it would take away from high level casters that usually provide those buffs.

Or hey, if you wanted to think big make a third category of item compatible with Forgies for Wands/Rods which adds certain spells to them.

[The Flying Rodent]

I like that idea, but I think people have already voiced concern that it would take away from high level casters that usually provide those buffs.

Or hey, if you wanted to think big make a third category of item compatible with Forgies for Wands/Rods which adds certain spells to them.

It doesn’t, because lower level versions of these spells also have a greater probability of being dispelled. High level versions from casters last longer and are harder to remove.

[Yunim]

Forge->new stone->item->new add in item = randomly re-roll properties.

Does this mean that it randomly removes from all current properties, it re-rolls variable rolls (eg 2d6 Massive Criticals could be re-rolled to 2d10 Massive Criticals), or it re-adds a previously removed property?

If it does re-roll variable rolls, will this apply to all forge-able properties or only the random ones (Abilities, Damage, Massive Criticals, etc)?

[driller]

I haven't decided. This part hasn't been implemented yet.

Forge->new stone->item->new add in item = randomly re-roll properties.

Does this mean that it randomly removes from all current properties, it re-rolls variable rolls (eg 2d6 Massive Criticals could be re-rolled to 2d10 Massive Criticals), or it re-adds a previously removed property?

If it does re-roll variable rolls, will this apply to all forge-able properties or only the random ones (Abilities, Damage, Massive Criticals, etc)?

[sphinx]

Well you really already have a random type stone. Just implementing a stone that would randomly remove one property would be fine imo.

[Sway]

Well you really already have a random type stone. Just implementing a stone that would randomly remove one property would be fine imo.

It could be cool if we were able to randomly roll a property back on an item with a specific stone, but make that stone rarer than the removable one. For example, you buy a Theuge Pendant, and randomly remove a property that you actually needed, you would use the other stone to add that property back on. To make it more difficult to forge perfect from this, give it a chance to fail whilst still losing the stone.

[driller]

I already have this in the game.

Well you really already have a random type stone. Just implementing a stone that would randomly remove one property would be fine imo.

[driller]

That would be the intent of the overwrite I talked about earlier in the thread. But I like the ideal of requiring another stone.

It would work like I posted before, but have this additional change.

Regular forge stone->item to be modified->new stone I recently added = re-roll specific property.

Well you really already have a random type stone. Just implementing a stone that would randomly remove one property would be fine imo.

It could be cool if we were able to randomly roll a property back on an item with a specific stone, but make that stone rarer than the removable one. For example, you buy a Theuge Pendant, and randomly remove a property that you actually needed, you would use the other stone to add that property back on. To make it more difficult to forge perfect from this, give it a chance to fail whilst still losing the stone.

[Sway]

That would be the intent of the overwrite I talked about earlier in the thread. But I like the ideal of requiring another stone.

It would work like I posted before, but have this additional change.

Regular forge stone->item to be modified->new stone I recently added = re-roll specific property.

Now are we talking about re-rolling the base properties? Say i LOOT a Rapier with:

LOOTED RAPIER
1d6 fire damage
EMD: Bludgeon
+4 Vamp regen.

And i use the new stone to remove a property and it ends up:

NEW RAPIER
1d6 fire damage
+4 Vamp regen.

and i lose what i wanted, how would the new system works as far as getting that EMD back on it?

NEW RAPIER + New stone + old stone = LOOTED RAPIER?