Blackrose PvP

[Cornflower]

Still, TS is really cheese, I think we could all agree to disable it for many reasons and benefits? There is no real counter for it, You get TSed even with high SR, beeging GSed and with mantle on.....

Please don't nerf TS. It's very nice to have against certain monsters. Maybe only make it illegal in PvP instead?

[run4life]

Still, TS is really cheese, I think we could all agree to disable it for many reasons and benefits? There is no real counter for it, You get TSed even with high SR, beeging GSed and with mantle on.....

Please don't nerf TS. It's very nice to have against certain monsters. Maybe only make it illegal in PvP instead?

For me both ways are fine..... however, You think there is no other way to deal with all those monsters without TS?

Maybe its possible to script TS and it would affect NPCs only?

Just thinking!

[Cornflower]

Still, TS is really cheese, I think we could all agree to disable it for many reasons and benefits? There is no real counter for it, You get TSed even with high SR, beeging GSed and with mantle on.....

Please don't nerf TS. It's very nice to have against certain monsters. Maybe only make it illegal in PvP instead?

For me both ways are fine..... however, You think there is no other way to deal with all those monsters without TS?

Maybe its possible to script TS and it would affect NPCs only?

Just thinking!

Well... At least one late quest that's mostly impossible to do solo, you MIGHT be able to solo it using TS if you're a well-built wizard. So, it would be sad if some pvp problem spilled over to that.

[Kalaron]

Why nerf mages again? Mages can only cast it few times, they can not spam it. If you want to adjust, just get rid of the Scroll on the shop, that is the source of the spaming in this case.

[Yunim]

I'm against nerfing Time Stop just because of a PvP fight.

Either agree to stop using Time Stop altogether or agree to stop using Time Stop scrolls (since there are ways to deal with casters spamming Time Stop, just not scroll users spamming Time Stop).

Yesterday there was a wizard in the opposing party using Time Stop and our party still killed them because of the weaknesses that come from a caster actually casting the spell. Scroll usage doesn't have those weaknesses.

[driller]

This is a very specific anything goes area. The solution to this problem is to not to go there.

[Sway]

and i m a bit confused why TFR would waste any minute discussing it here...... he forgot that Zero is no match in real PvP?

Hilarious .

- Tbh before yesterday, it was only one other fight.. not many instances as you probably think and it was way more of the people you hopped to defense for, Zero. It was about 6 or 7 of them give or take. For you to assume we were "jumping" people is saddening. The day before you came to anyone's defense, it was a pretty even fight in numbers, WITHOUT the use of TS scrolls. I don't have a problem with the way TS was used, only that it's non-counterable.

I like the anything goes factor, because it adds a lot of fun into the game, but coming down there with a cheese (scrolls)? Makes it lame.. and you guys brought that there.

Moral of the story, it could have been fun without you guys cheesing. If you want to play police or whatever, understand what happened first.. and if you're trying to prove that you're good at the game, do so without cheesing.

Peace.

[driller]

Let's move away from the personal snipes, otherwise I will lock this thread.

[The Flying Rodent]

I feel this went about as well as expected , so to try and bring it back on track a bit before the thread is locked:

Perhaps there could be some discussion about whether or not having an uncounterable cheese tactic in a PVP fight is healthy for PVP looking forward.

The cheese tactic I’m referring to is, again, the fact that in a free for all PvP scenario on Blackstone , there is no counterplay to a giant bundle of time stop scrolls. Not the spell Time stop specifically (which can be counter spelled and is limited to 10 or so per rest), only the scrolls (which cannot be counterspelled and is limited by the amount of time someone has spent making them).

In addition to this, the use of the Time Stop Spell/Scroll does not appear to break Greater Sanctuary or even Invisibility, so not only is it uncounterable, but whoever is facing the tactic cannot see whenever their opponent is going to use it. The end result is that, in a free for all, a level 1 Wizard in a party with a bundle of scrolls is as effective at auto-winning a FFA PVP fight as a specialised Level 40 character build in a party with a bundle of scrolls.

Granted, there is only one ‘official’ area where FFA PVP is currently sanctioned (Blackrose), and there are other silly dynamics of PvP in that place (such as porting back through an unkillable portal upon death over and over again). But despite this, surely this sort of thing ends up happening elsewhere anyway. Whether or not people believe it to be against the rules of engagement, a form of cheating, etc. the fact still remains: there is no counterplay in Blackstone party PvP to a giant bundle of time stop scrolls.

If the consensus is that people are comfortable with there being an auto-win PvP option available with no counterplay, I don’t mind that. I personally think something should be done about this issue for the health of PvP balance, and that it may have even historically and currently effected the quality of PvP player skill and character building on the server; after all, what’s the point of skill or building when scrolls > everything else.

But ... I made my suggestion fully aware that this is a PvM focused server, and that this brand of PvP could be considered niche. My initial assumption was that the scrolls were here to stay because of that.

So I suppose for anybody in future reading this: if you desperately want to win a PvP duel in a group on Blackstone, remember that 100 Time Stop scrolls will offer your group 600-900 seconds (10-15 minutes) of totally free time to do whatever you like against your opponent, and there’s nothing that your opponent can do except join the proverbial nuclear arms race themselves. Player skill and effective character building be damned.

[Wing--Zero]

Again Time Stop is not a INSTANT WIN in PvP that is you making the assumption that it is. Just because your group was beaten with it doesn't mean it was a instant win. It actually took a lot of work! Your view is coming from someone that was standing outside the door with the door shut and didn't even watch the main fight as it started or progressed through the middle. You were actually one of the last ones we killed.

As for the discussion of it being INSTANT WIN I've had it used on me plenty of times and have come back and won that fight in various ways. I've had people use scrolls of time stop (MULTIPLE meaning more than just the one) along with a few other so called cheeze scrolls and still won that fight. Call it what you will or may there is a counter for everything in this game if you are fast enough and think on your feat when the opportunity shows. Sometimes you can miss those opportunity's .....I have myself a few times and its cost me a fight or two.

I don't care if someone has 1000 time stop scrolls if you do the right moves or find the right time you can win the fight. It may or may not present itself always but, again even while I was casting these instant win spells your group still killed me. Also Yunim and his mage had US time stopped quite a few times during this battle. Why wasn't that a instant win for your group if your logic holds up? Do you know the answer because I do by being there from the start of this fight. This isn't the first conversation about someone wanting to nerf/removal time stop or other spells after losing against it. If you guys would have won that fight I don't think you would have been making these posts asking for the nerf/removal.

Sway.....I don't have to prove anything I know i'm good at this game. Do I think Im the very best? No there is always someone better but, I've been teaching all of you quite a few tricks lately. There is actually a post from Rodent thanking me for teaching him a few things about rangers. Your also included in that list btw...I do believe I was giving you pointers along with Yunim after beating your sneaker in the arena. When you decided to make your WM build that he made for you along with giving you the Last Word Robes and a few other goodies for free. My facts are as correct as they could be. If they weren't lol I would have been completely wrong about you guys jumping people in Blackrose... yet there you were the first time I logged in at 6:04 attacking 1 person.....and that poor guy begged me for a invite. Stating he was on my side....The other person was the newb who asked me to help him shop. You also attacked him right off the bat when he stepped through the portal...along with me. The rest of the people there was nothing but, your group until Raven showed up. Again everything has a counter ...no i'm not gonna teach it to you guys you'll have to do the work yourself on this one but, everything has a weakness and counter in this game.

Moral of this long story....please stop calling time stop a instant win. That's just you assuming it makes it a instant win. Plenty of things can still happen. I've personally already thought of 3 counters for it.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3303&start=15

This is the Link of Rodent giving me props when I fought 6 or 7 Kazarites with just Duo Maxwell and Roland Deschain. The only time I died was when they used harm against us....but, truth be told Warlock could have probably (I turely don't know how it would have gone one way or the other) killed me if he got his time stops off but, they were bugged at the time. Point being even if Time Stop happens you don't know how the fight will go. You can think you know but, you don't.

[The Flying Rodent]

Again Time Stop is not a INSTANT WIN in PvP that is you making the assumption that it is. Just because your group was beaten with it doesn't mean it was a instant win. It actually took a lot of work! Your view is coming from someone that was standing outside the door with the door shut and didn't even watch the main fight as it started or progressed through the middle. You were actually one of the last ones we killed.

As for the discussion of it being INSTANT WIN I've had it used on me plenty of times and have come back and won that fight in various ways. I've had people use scrolls of time stop (MULTIPLE meaning more than just the one) along with a few other so called cheeze scrolls and still won that fight. Call it what you will or may there is a counter for everything in this game if you are fast enough and think on your feat when the opportunity shows. Sometimes you can miss those opportunity's .....I have myself a few times and its cost me a fight or two.

I don't care if someone has 1000 time stop scrolls if you do the right moves or find the right time you can win the fight. It may or may not present itself always but, again even while I was casting these instant win spells your group still killed me. Also Yunim and his mage had US time stopped quite a few times during this battle. Why wasn't that a instant win for your group if your logic holds up? Do you know the answer because I do by being there from the start of this fight. This isn't the first conversation about someone wanting to nerf/removal time stop or other spells after losing against it. If you guys would have won that fight I don't think you would have been making these posts asking for the nerf/removal.

Sway.....I don't have to prove anything I know i'm good at this game. Do I think Im the very best? No there is always someone better but, I've been teaching all of you quite a few tricks lately. There is actually a post from Rodent thanking me for teaching him a few things about rangers. Your also included in that list btw...I do believe I was giving you pointers along with Yunim after beating your sneaker in the arena. When you decided to make your WM build that he made for you along with giving you the Last Word Robes and a few other goodies for free. My facts are as correct as they could be. If they weren't lol I would have been completely wrong about you guys jumping people in Blackrose... yet there you were the first time I logged in at 6:04 attacking 1 person.....and that poor guy begged me for a invite. Stating he was on my side....The other person was the newb who asked me to help him shop. You also attacked him right off the bat when he stepped through the portal...along with me. The rest of the people there was nothing but, your group until Raven showed up. Again everything has a counter ...no i'm not gonna teach it to you guys you'll have to do the work yourself on this one but, everything has a weakness and counter in this game.

Moral of this long story....please stop calling time stop a instant win. That's just you assuming it makes it a instant win. Plenty of things can still happen. I've personally already thought of 3 counters for it. So go ahead and make as many scrolls as you want

Aside from running outside of the area of effect of the timestop, or landing a time stop first, could you put forward a counter to someone spending 10 minutes reading scrolls and preventing the opposition from doing anything at all? I’m happy to hear some suggestions and change my mind if they sound plausible (for e.g. Spell Resistance , if it worked, would be a plausible counter), but until then I’m happy to keep calling the tactic an ‘auto win’. Because once it starts, it apparently can’t be stopped, and the party with the scroll spammer automatically wins.

Of course people can lose if a fight if they’re using Time Stop scrolls: all they have to do is stop using the scrolls, or be fought from extreme range (which isn’t an option in a close quarters map like Blackrose). And in the times where you had died during the PvP fight, this is exactly what happened. You attempted to use other things weren’t purely spamming time stop scrolls , (or were caught unawares before you started using them), and once you focused your attention solely on scroll spamming, the fight was over.

In a 1v1, I imagine it would be somewhat challenging to try and juggle scroll usage amongst other things, but I can think of one simple combo off the top of my head that involes someone using a scroll, casting 1 specific spell, and then continuing to spam scrolls whilst the target died. And I imagine for anybody that’s played mages on the server that wouldn’t be difficult to figure out, either.

In a party scenario however , where there are other members around to deal damage, the scenario is even easier and the character doesn’t even have to be a Mage. All one has to do is start spamming scrolls whilst party members clean everybody up. That’s it. Again, I’m happy to hear suggestions about how to break it of a stunlock from someone spamming scrolls, aside from not being close to them. It’s not like scroll spamming can be counterspelled or interrupted, like the spell can.

I know that this whole thing is overshadowed by the incident that happened and will probably continue to do so but, really, my only concern is with the scrolls, dude. And the potential past, present and future ramifications that it has had/will have on free for all PvP.

The moral of the story seems to be that there are no morals when to comes to free for all group PvP, and that there’s a pretty obvious tactic that beats just about everything else. Which has nothing to do with the quality of the character one is piloting, or the quality of the player behind it. And that people either seem to not care because that’s the way things have always been, dance around /miss the point by stating what happened to them when they weren’t on the sending or receiving end of someone ONLY spamming scrolls in a group PvP situation, or throw out a nuclear detterant style argument of ‘well you should’ve just used them yourself’.

[Yunim]

Again Time Stop is not a INSTANT WIN in PvP that is you making the assumption that it is. Just because your group was beaten with it doesn't mean it was a instant win. It actually took a lot of work! Your view is coming from someone that was standing outside the door with the door shut and didn't even watch the main fight as it started or progressed through the middle. You were actually one of the last ones we killed.

As for the discussion of it being INSTANT WIN I've had it used on me plenty of times and have come back and won that fight in various ways. I've had people use scrolls of time stop (MULTIPLE meaning more than just the one) along with a few other so called cheeze scrolls and still won that fight. Call it what you will or may there is a counter for everything in this game if you are fast enough and think on your feat when the opportunity shows. Sometimes you can miss those opportunity's .....I have myself a few times and its cost me a fight or two.

I don't care if someone has 1000 time stop scrolls if you do the right moves or find the right time you can win the fight. It may or may not present itself always but, again even while I was casting these instant win spells your group still killed me. Also Yunim and his mage had US time stopped quite a few times during this battle. Why wasn't that a instant win for your group if your logic holds up? Do you know the answer because I do by being there from the start of this fight. This isn't the first conversation about someone wanting to nerf/removal time stop or other spells after losing against it. If you guys would have won that fight I don't think you would have been making these posts asking for the nerf/removal.

There is only one defence against 1 character spamming Time Stop scrolls and 1 character attacking the opposing party in Blackrose, and that is to have a mage waiting outside the trader's room to cast Time Stop on the opposing party inside the room.

In open area PvP you can space your party out to avoid the entire party being affected by 1 spammer, but that isn't possible in Blackrose.

You died twice, the first time because you stopped using Time Stop scrolls to use a Mords scroll which screwed up your timing and let me Time Stop you first, the second time due to my mage casting Time Stop faster than you could use a scroll after you portalled in. Once Raven joined and you could focus on Time Stop scrolls there was nothing we could do to counter you.

There are ways to defend against casters casting Time Stop, since all casters suffer from the same weaknesses.
There are ways to defend against solo Time Stop scroll spammers, since they have to stop spamming to actually damage you.
Time Stopper + damage dealer doesn't even have that weakness.

Personally I don't mind Time Stop in PvP (and since I was one of the mages using it it would be pretty hypocritical if I was), it's just Time Stop scrolls I'm against.

[The Flying Rodent]

There is only one defence against 1 character spamming Time Stop scrolls and 1 character attacking the opposing party in Blackrose, and that is to have a mage waiting outside the trader's room to cast Time Stop on the opposing party inside the room.

In open area PvP you can space your party out to avoid the entire party being affected by 1 spammer, but that isn't possible in Blackrose.

...

There are ways to defend against casters casting Time Stop, since all casters suffer from the same weaknesses.
There are ways to defend against solo Time Stop scroll spammers, since they have to stop spamming to actually damage you.
Time Stopper + damage dealer doesn't even have that weakness.

Personally I don't mind Time Stop in PvP (and since I was one of the mages using it it would be pretty hypocritical if I was), it's just Time Stop scrolls I'm against.

This is pretty much my opinion as well. Thankyou Yunim. It's good to see someone on the same page.

[Sway]

Sway.....I don't have to prove anything I know i'm good at this game. Do I think Im the very best? No there is always someone better but, I've been teaching all of you quite a few tricks lately. There is actually a post from Rodent thanking me for teaching him a few things about rangers. Your also included in that list btw...I do believe I was giving you pointers along with Yunim after beating your sneaker in the arena. When you decided to make your WM build that he made for you along with giving you the Last Word Robes and a few other goodies for free. My facts are as correct as they could be. If they weren't lol I would have been completely wrong about you guys jumping people in Blackrose... yet there you were the first time I logged in at 6:04 attacking 1 person.....and that poor guy begged me for a invite. Stating he was on my side....The other person was the newb who asked me to help him shop. You also attacked him right off the bat when he stepped through the portal...along with me. The rest of the people there was nothing but, your group until Raven showed up. Again everything has a counter ...no i'm not gonna teach it to you guys you'll have to do the work yourself on this one but, everything has a weakness and counter in this game.

What does any of this have to do with what's at hand? We're discussing you spamming Time Stop Scrolls. LIKE I SAID, i don't have an issue with the way time stop is used, just you spamming the scrolls over and over and then acting like you did some good policing or something. And you obviously don't know what happened the first day. it was a good 7 on 7 or so and yes, some people got caught in the crossfire. I attacked the same dude as yesterday that was in the party along with "Lich Archmage, Larrek, Loreen Mrs(sp), etc.
YOU brought the cheesing down there and that's where we have the issue. Before, Yunim and Lich Archmage were just casting TS. NO ONE used scrolls until YOU. what don't you understand about that??

Once you started using the scrolls, THERE WAS NOTHING WE COULD DO. Which basically means it was a what?? AUTO WIN.

I appreciate what you've done and the tips and pointers you gave out to other players and I, but i surely can't understand how you cant see the issue or problem we have with this.

And read this clearly:

ITS NOT THE FACT THAT WE LOST. ITS A GAME, IM SURE MOST OF US COULD CARELESS. ITS HOW WE LOST (The time stop scroll cheesing). What did i say after we finished? "Good fight and well faught," while joking with someone about their DPS. Meaning there were no hard feelings. You thought you were playing police and ended up raising an eyebrow with the TS Scrolls.

[neludz]

You're spamming HIPS, he's spamming TS, what is the problem?