Brainstorming the Crafting System

[Kane0]

So the current system is based around getting your craft weapon/armor as high as possible in order to reach the best possible results when you hit the magic number, with one potential build capable of hitting that mark without the assistance of gear. The 'single viable crafter build' part is what I dislike about the system, so I've been mulling over potential suggestions in the back of my head for a while.

I would like to propose a suggestion, but first I'd like to see what others think. Am I in the minority in wanting more potential options for a crafter character? Do people like the system how it is? What parts to people like and dislike? How 'hard' should crafting be, and where should the difficulty come from?

For my own thoughts, instead of basing the results off skill bonus how about stat bonus with an added +1 for having a skill focus (craft X) feat and a +2 for an epic skill focus (craft X) feat. Each character uses their highest stat bonus when crafting to encourage build diversity.
This makes the absolute highest craft score you can get 23 from stat alone (maximum Str RDD H-orc) and 26 using the combined +3 from skill focus feats. Classes going off other other stats are only 2 or 3 points behind this, with Dex, Int and Cha getting up to 21/24 and finally Con and Wis going up to 20/23.
Thus we can set the upper limit to craft the best stuff to say for example 20 if we want to be lenient, 22 if we want dedicated crafting characters to be a thing WITHOUT restricting viable build options or 25 if we DO want to (although if this is the case we should probably just stick to what we have).
I think this would also have the added benefit of making crafting at low to mid levels more appealing by increasing the floor while also potentially making the cap easier to reach before level 35+ (and without a massive difference between scores at the endgame). Also also, it provides a bit more visibility in that if you have a combined +14 STR bonus, you can expect around a +14 weapon. Easy reference math.

You can of course add in a hidden roll to this, say adding your craft score to a d20 or 3d6 roll and raising the upper limit by 8-12 to add a margin of uncertainty. I can see the appeal behind this but also the potential issues.

But besides pitching the concept i'm interested in other people's opinions on crafting and the mechanics behind.

[Wing--Zero]

I honestly love the current system and the way it is set up. I really did enjoy spending time trying out stones and learning what does what along with learning the mechanics of crafting in general. I personally think it SHOULD be challenging to get the really good stones and the good rolls to get the perfect gear. Otherwise it kinda all loses it allure.


If we do that its basically like flip flopping in my opinion. The current system is based off of 2 major abilities as is. The score is a pretty easy one to get especially with items that are available now. There is a certain cut off point and anything beyond that is just wasted skills. If we did that it would make all current crafters scrap and driller would have to do a bunch of work. There are multiple builds that are already out there for crafters: 40 Bard, 38 wizard 1 rogue, 1 fighter (or lvl 40 wizard), Bard Rdd Pm, Wizard Bard, And I've also seen one that was a harper scout. These builds can hit it without any gear added accept for the lvl 40 wizard its 2 points shy. There are enough items in game that my current crafter I stopped leveling him at lvl 33 and haven't leveled him since (that was a year ago). I honestly think its a neat outside the box idea and its one of the first crafting suggestions I weighed pros and cons on....I just leaned more towards keeping the old system.

[driller]

I am looking into requiring the base skill to be over certain amount without items to get the highest level of gear. This should stop some of the cheese with forging that has creeped in due to my lack of due diligence on a few items I have added.

[Wing--Zero]

So are you saying your going to raise the bar on what it takes to get the maximum result?

[driller]

I still haven't decided yet.

So are you saying your going to raise the bar on what it takes to get the maximum result?

[Jake_Master]

I personally like the current system it’s been around for years now and has served BSK well. In my opinion the build aspect is the easy part any ways... sure it isn’t the best build to survive with but it’s certainly not impossible considering the amount of people with a crafter build.

The hard part is understanding the crafting system and how each forge stones are used, many people use a stone, get a result and think that is that particular stones ability, however most times each stone can vary based on what it is used on, it also may be random, it has many variances and this is the true complication of the current crafting system that makes it tough, which also makes it fun, including the rareness or forge stones... if everyone had everything it would simply be boring. Their are a ton of crafters running around yet many of them mess up gear because they simply don’t understand the system... like I said the current system has served well forever now, in my opinion their is no sense fixing something that isn’t broke, if anything take out the gear with extra craft ability and call it a day...

On another note Happy Thanksgiving everyone

[Cornflower]

I personally like the current system it’s been around for years now and has served BSK well. In my opinion the build aspect is the easy part any ways... sure it isn’t the best build to survive with but it’s certainly not impossible considering the amount of people with a crafter build.

The hard part is understanding the crafting system and how each forge stones are used, many people use a stone, get a result and think that is that particular stones ability, however most times each stone can vary based on what it is used on, it also may be random, it has many variances and this is the true complication of the current crafting system that makes it tough, which also makes it fun, including the rareness or forge stones... if everyone had everything it would simply be boring. Their are a ton of crafters running around yet many of them mess up gear because they simply don’t understand the system... like I said the current system has served well forever now, in my opinion their is no sense fixing something that isn’t broke, if anything take out the gear with extra craft ability and call it a day...

On another note Happy Thanksgiving everyone

What he said.
If it works, don't fix it.

[driller]

I agree. Happy Thanksgiving.

I personally like the current system it’s been around for years now and has served BSK well. In my opinion the build aspect is the easy part any ways... sure it isn’t the best build to survive with but it’s certainly not impossible considering the amount of people with a crafter build.

The hard part is understanding the crafting system and how each forge stones are used, many people use a stone, get a result and think that is that particular stones ability, however most times each stone can vary based on what it is used on, it also may be random, it has many variances and this is the true complication of the current crafting system that makes it tough, which also makes it fun, including the rareness or forge stones... if everyone had everything it would simply be boring. Their are a ton of crafters running around yet many of them mess up gear because they simply don’t understand the system... like I said the current system has served well forever now, in my opinion their is no sense fixing something that isn’t broke, if anything take out the gear with extra craft ability and call it a day...

On another note Happy Thanksgiving everyone

[Kane0]

I honestly love the current system and the way it is set up. I really did enjoy spending time trying out stones and learning what does what along with learning the mechanics of crafting in general. I personally think it SHOULD be challenging to get the really good stones and the good rolls to get the perfect gear. Otherwise it kinda all loses it allure.

The hard part is understanding the crafting system and how each forge stones are used, many people use a stone, get a result and think that is that particular stones ability, however most times each stone can vary based on what it is used on, it also may be random, it has many variances and this is the true complication of the current crafting system that makes it tough, which also makes it fun, including the rareness or forge stones... if everyone had everything it would simply be boring.

I agree. The challenging part and the part that contributes to the experience is the difficulty of getting the ingredients and learning which ones do what. Getting the skill seems like an unnecessary hurdle that is seeing balance troubles. That's the part I'd like to see change, running the roll on ability bonus instead of skill bonus narrows the margin required to balance things.

I am looking into requiring the base skill to be over certain amount without items to get the highest level of gear. This should stop some of the cheese with forging that has creeped in due to my lack of due diligence on a few items I have added.

This also sounds like a good step. Everybody is on a slightly more even playing field in that case, except for wizards who are the only true INT characters and would become the new go-to crafter if the bar is set too high (which would prompt many to change to them, probably with some protest if they have invested time and effort into the current crafter build).
However traditional martials could potentially still be locked out of the best score, which is the part that irks me personally. The best way I can illustrate this frustration is an example: When you play through the OC blacksmiths like Marrok and Barun are the ones that take your special ingredients to make 'custom' magic weapons and armor, usually much better than what you otherwise find in the campaign. The same holds true in HotU for Rizolvir, also a smith and not a mage.
These guys are not wizards and certainly not bards, they are burly warrior-like blacksmiths like the fellow in Blackstone. I would like to see that kind of character be able to make forged gear at least as well as the archmage weaving complex enchantments or the dragon disciple utilizing ancient draconic secrets. Also, the skills used are Craft Weapon/Armor, not Spellcraft or Lore. Nonmagical skills, no reason to favor casters.
I recognize that an investment needs to be made to be a crafter, in this case max ranks and some feats at the very least. That's a significant investment in a build, and considering the most challenging part isn't the build itself but the acquiring of materials and knowledge of their function I don't see the benefit to gating that investment to a handful of viable build options.

[Mask-inc]

I have an easy solution, make a fighter, put int at 18, pick int everytime you can, pick all the craft skills and feats needed and use those + craft items that are around, here, you have your warrior type blacksmith


Mask

[Kane0]

Except you don't. You max out at 74 in one craft and 64 in the other, +1 if you take 9 levels in RDD. Not going to cut it without those + Craft items Driller has raised the idea of removing.
Even wizards come up short with only +2 above that.

Edit: And for the record, I'm not saying 'fix' or 'broken', i'm saying 'improvement'

[Wing--Zero]

What Mask was talking about actually is possible with items in bsk now unless driller removes them as he mentioned. I don't know if he will get ride of all of them and make it like it use to be on the old server or just certain ones.

To be honest my crafter has Overwhelming crit!....he has 4 less strength than he does intel......he would be this type of crafter.

or the dragon disciple utilizing ancient draconic secrets.

The other offical crafter for the Hunters would be this type

at least as well archmage weaving complex enchantments

both have max skill in Armor and Weapon build alone.....those type of characters are out there you just gotta find the right mesh to make em how you want them. They don't all have to be squishy. Yes bard is a essential key to making a crafter but, it doesn't define the entire build. You just need a certain amount of it. Which is another thing I really really enjoyed about making crafters! I even made one with Epic Damage Reduction 3 that was a arcane caster and than come to find out my buddy Roland had made a similar version but, it was actually even better than mine. So there are all these options I've mentioned plus I've also seen a Barbarian Crafter before which was a few years ago though on the old old server but, I know it could be made.

[The Flying Rodent]

Hey guys, I've only been around for a few weeks and am still very much learning how everything works. I don’t feel that I can contribute too much to what the crafting system ‘should be’, but I feel that I can at least share my observations over the years playing with different NWN crafting systems.

This is the 3rd 'crafting system' for NWN that I have encountered whilst playing PW's; the first being CNR and the 2nd being ATS. Both CNR and ATS are based in part off of a separate 'crafting skill' system totally independent of character skills, which used the 'skills' along with Ability Bonuses of various flavours [mainly Str and Int for ATS, and a mixture of everything for CNR] to determine crafting success rate.

From my observation having now used 3 different nwn crafting systems, one thing to me is pretty clear: You cannot get around the idea of a 'crafter build'. If the crafting system is anyway based off of character critera [abilities, skills, etc.], then some builds are going to be better at it than others. Red Dragon Disciples in particular tend to excel at anything involving Abilities because they receive so many of them for free.

If the criteria is set such that no character can achieve 100% success rate in something [was the case for certain types of crafting in the ATS System], then people pick for characters that can at least achieve the highest success rate possible [in that instance, it was Str RDD Half Orcs]. And in the event that there was 'no' character criteria ... then level 40 monks that can run between areas quickly are looking like pretty appealing crafter characters.

As for Blackstone Keep's system? I'm quite enjoying it. I like the dice rolls and the mystery of trying to find out what all the stones do. I don't see a reason to change 'the system', as it stands. As for which character can perform well within the system ... I feel like that's more the focus of this thread.

There are multiple builds that are already out there for crafters: 40 Bard, 38 wizard 1 rogue, 1 fighter (or lvl 40 wizard), Bard Rdd Pm, Wizard Bard, And I've also seen one that was a harper scout. These builds can hit it without any gear added accept for the lvl 40 wizard its 2 points shy. There are enough items in game that my current crafter I stopped leveling him at lvl 33 and haven't leveled him since (that was a year ago).

Assuming that the threshold for 'Master Crafting' Skill is 80, as has been suggested in multiple threads here, then at present the only type of character that can attain maximum skill without Craft Armour/Weapon equipment is a Bard. That particular character can still potentially do lots of things with themselves (my master crafter got Devastating Critical, for example), but they still have to be a Bard if they don’t want to use items.

56 is the maximum Base Crafting skill that any character can attain [43 base + 13 from feats]. After that, 24 points must be gained from elsewhere in order to attain the threshold. A wizard, at present, can only get 20 points from 50 Intelligence, and a Wiz RDD that stifles their wizard levels until epic can get 21 points with 52 intelligence [if they save their level 10/15/20 wizard feats until epic levels to get Great INT X along with two epic skill focuses]. This still leaves 3-4 points that must come from elsewhere, and the only other non-equipment method of raising Craft Skill points in NWN is to be a Bard.

Currently, Bard / RDD seems to be the flavour of crafter here, which combines both the 'Bard Song skill boosting fun' with the 'RDD Ability Boosting fun' . Hypothetically, a Wizard 21 Bard 19 could also reach the threshold [44 int or 17 mod buffed + 7 from song = the 24 points required after base], but this is still technically a Bard. I imagine a Harper Scout could also achieve it ... provided that they have lots of Bard levels.

The point is: all non-Bard crafting builds ‘must’ rely on equipment to bump over the threshold, assuming that that threshold is 80 points. Bards in this way are ‘the crafting class’ here (usually mixed with RDD because ‘why not’ ... ), unless one is able to find a lot of items.

Speaking of which:

I am looking into requiring the base skill to be over certain amount without items to get the highest level of gear. This should stop some of the cheese with forging that has creeped in due to my lack of due diligence on a few items I have added.

If the new system was to base itself purely off of base skill , then it must find a way to differentiate between 'Bard Song' boosting skills, and 'Equipment Boosting Skills'. Either that, or the threshold for 'maximum crafting skill' would have to be lowered, as at present there is 'no' crafter build that can attain the threshold without relying on boosts from Bard Song or equipment.

If the change just went ahead and flat out cut 'all' skill bonuses, then basically no one would be able to max craft anymore. And if the threshold were lowered whilst removing ‘all’ varieties of skill boosts and only considered Intelligence, then everybody would be crafting with Max INT Wizards instead of Bards. Which in my opinion are a LOT cheesier to play and make than high-level Bards are (just slap a couple of epic skill focus feats on your typical feat-abundant Wizard, and then Time-Stop and Bigby Hand your way to victory with a Mummy by your side...).

Problems to keep in mind! =)

[Cornflower]

I've been around since May, not counting the years 2003-2006 or something like that, and I have built somewhere like 15 characters where most have not reached lvl 40 since the world is constructed the way it is. Not complaining, just giving some background.

Now, to talk about Crafting. There are several builds that work well as crafters, but the main thing about crafting is the mystery. For me it took several months of RP and discussions in game to reach the point where (at least I think so) I can craft and forge anything.

Yes, I had to make a bard, which I have never played before. It was not as impossible as trying to level a wizard, rogue or basically anything else than a Fighter-ish character. It also brought a sense of accomplishment.

Now, I'm begging you driller, don't change the crafting system. It works well, it's awesome and it gives the bard a reason to exist. Please don't mess with it. I love it.

[The Flying Rodent]

Just had a thought: I’m assuming that the cheesy items in question are Vanilla versions of Izu’s Fabrication Hammers.

In which case: maybe characters could just be made to un-equip weapons before attempting to engage with the forge? Assuming that the cheesy items are limited to just weapons, this would solve that particular problem.