Worst class?

[The Flying Rodent]

Ranger holds quite a strong position as a PVP class, as they can choose most of the player races as their Favoured Enemies, which then receive quite a bit of extra damage from Bane. They can also attain strong all round AB, Damage and AC figures when combined with RDD or Palemaster , with minimal buffing required (+20 weapons helps here). Thankyou Wing Zero for making this apparent to me.

That said, Bards also generally hold a strong position as a PVP class, and they just got their Epic Perform Gloves back ... *sly grin*

[Kane0]

But how much better than Fighter Weapon Spec, Rogue/BG/Assassin Sneak Attack, WM Crits, RDD Strength, etc?

Ranger's failing isn't in their attack and damage output, it's in defense and utility. They don't get all those bonus feats like fighters, their secondary stat isn't rewarded like Paladins, they don't get a swathe of skills and features like rogues and monks, their casting and companion aren't as good as druids/bards/paladins. They become a jack of all trades, master of none and need to be propped up by PrCs more than most.
Getting the TWF feats for free is handy, but needs a steep investment of 9 levels and takes one of your precious three class choices as well as being a favored class of zero races. Besides, those getting the most out of those feats would probably have the Dex, bonus feats or both to get them another way like fighter, monk, rogue, CoT, etc. It's too niche to rely on as a baseline for a useful class.
I've tried to make a STR 'blender' with Ranger levels for the free TWF feats. I've usually found it better to replace that class selection with something else, but that's just me.

/2cp

Edit: Also a sidenote, D&D is notorious for having poor PvP balance, it's never been a big design goal of the system.

[Cornflower]

That said, Bards also generally hold a strong position as a PVP class, and they just got their Epic Perform Gloves back ... *sly grin*

Err... No? I bought Epic Perform Gloves which said "+30" when I paid for them. When I equipped them later, they said "+6", so I threw them away....

[The Flying Rodent]

That said, Bards also generally hold a strong position as a PVP class, and they just got their Epic Perform Gloves back ... *sly grin*

Err... No? I bought Epic Perform Gloves which said "+30" when I paid for them. When I equipped them later, they said "+6", so I threw them away....

Heh. Looks like these got nerfed again then. Guessing because the crafting nerfs didn't work out as planned.

Guess that makes bards higher than 26 levels shit again. Shouldn't effect my proposed bards too much though, as they dont go further than 26 levels.

[The Flying Rodent]

But how much better than Fighter Weapon Spec, Rogue/BG/Assassin Sneak Attack, WM Crits, RDD Strength, etc?

Ranger's failing isn't in their attack and damage output, it's in defense and utility. They don't get all those bonus feats like fighters, their secondary stat isn't rewarded like Paladins, they don't get a swathe of skills and features like rogues and monks, their casting and companion aren't as good as druids/bards/paladins. They become a jack of all trades, master of none and need to be propped up by PrCs more than most.
Getting the TWF feats for free is handy, but needs a steep investment of 9 levels and takes one of your precious three class choices as well as being a favored class of zero races. Besides, those getting the most out of those feats would probably have the Dex, bonus feats or both to get them another way like fighter, monk, rogue, CoT, etc. It's too niche to rely on as a baseline for a useful class.
I've tried to make a STR 'blender' with Ranger levels for the free TWF feats. I've usually found it better to replace that class selection with something else, but that's just me.

/2cp

Edit: Also a sidenote, D&D is notorious for having poor PvP balance, it's never been a big design goal of the system.

Again: The thing about Rangers is that they excel within a particular niche. I’d be very careful about giving them anything too drastic, as this might make them too powerful within their niche.

Mostly Rangers shine in a large part through Favoured and Bane of Enemies damage, but their Stealth skills can help a lot as well. Favoured/Bane allows them to deal the highest base physical damage in the game [and have amongst the highest AB] against their preferred subset of foes, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, they are a bit lacking in the defense department [dunno about utility, they get a lot of skills and epic feats...] , but they are a strong offensive class to compensate, and +20 AB weapons make their offense even more pronounced.

There's also nothing stopping someone from mixing Ranger with Fighter, or WM, or RDD, or Shadowdancer, or Palemaster, or Rogue. In fact, if you wanted a decent 'all rounder' Ranger build, then generally you could mix it with 1 or 2 of the above classes and get something pretty decent. I could probably PM you an example Ranger build over the forums if you’d like an idea of how to build one.

I agree that trying to mix them in as a 'Strength blender' class for 9 Ranger levels and thus TWF feats, can feel a bit crappy. Generally Fighter is better for a splash of feats, though taking TWF on fighters does require 15 Base dex.

The ‘better’ Ranger builds tend to revolve around Bane, so you'll want 21 or more Ranger under your belt to make good use of it. And you also want to be very particular about Favoured Enemies ; for Pvp, you'll want to pick player races [Human, Elf, Dwarf, etc.], and for PvM, you generally want to take the races of the most dangerous types of enemies in the module [which can require some research, but usually turns out to be things like Dragons, Undead and/or Outsiders].

I also agree that D&D games tend to have poor PvP balance, and NWN is no exception. Usually it comes down to 'casters stomp on everybody' unless there's a ton of items to nullify their impact. I haven't had much experience with PvP on Blackstone, but it actually seems 'reasonably' balanced from what I've seen, outside of Timestop and Harm cheese.

[Asturonethoriusaline]

Like said before Rangers have their niche. And Rangers are freaking awesome in certain, limited multi class builds.

When multiclassing you want synergy, stacking of concept, game mechanics, BAB, AB, etc.

Example. I am making a level 10 Ranger/Level 6,7 Monk/Level 23,24 Assassin..

Now there are many ways that can build Assassin.

I could go Rogue 5/Assassin 30/SD 5

Problem is: no caster buffs, no spellcasting no healing unless UMD, and lower HP, lower BAB, AB, lower AC.

I could go Bard 8/SD 5/Assassin 27

This solves spellcasting but AB, BAB, AC, HP, is still lower

I could go Ranger 10/SD 5/Assassin 25

That solves spellcasting, BAB, AB higher, HP higher, but AC still low.

But if I go with Monk 7/Ranger 10/Assassin 23

I get flurry of blows, dual wielding 2 weapon fighting feats free. High BAB, High AB, LOTS OF ATTACKS PER ROUND, high AC, spellcasting buffs, healing, animal companion, summon animals, animal empathy charming animals, high skills, high Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, to do death attacks.

Yes miss out on SD shadow summon, HIPS, Shadow Evade, but with epic high Hide, Move Silently, spell buffs, etc, its still almost as good as HIPS, and if cant death attack, in combat, build have semi high HP, semi High AC, semi high BAB, AB, and LOTS OF ATTACKS PER ROUND at decent, ok, AB

If take ranger out of build, it would be a lot weaker.

And that is the hidden strength of a Ranger, in that if take Ranger out of certain niche, limited multiclass builds, those builds not as good.

Also while build mistakes, less optimization hurts Ranger most, then other classes, if you build the Ranger multiclass right, optimized in its optimal niche, limited, situational multiclass build, the result will often be better then with other non ranger classes that also optimized.

Examples of good Ranger multiclass level Alotment builds.

Ranger/SD/Assassin

Monk/Ranger/Assassin

Monk/Ranger/Rogue

Ranger/Bard/X= either Rogue, Assassin, SD, RDD, fighter

Barbarian/Ranger/X=Rogue, Assassin, SD, Bard, Fighter

In other words Rangers shine in stealth, either ranged, 2 weapon, lots of attacks, high Dex builds

Exception is Barbarian/Ranger/X= Bard, Rogue, Assassin, fighter builds, that usually a balance of Str, Dex, Con attributes build.

Just freaking imagine it, freaking Barbarian with freaking semi higher AC, semi higher AB, semi higher HP, raging, lots of attacks, beating it into a bloody pulp after it has already killed it, where it= almost everything.

Now a semi bad, lesser Ranger build would be a Ranger/Cleric, Ranger/Druid, Ranger/Sorcerer

Also epic level either single classed Rangers or multi class rangers with 33+ levels in Ranger are weaker.

So if know how to build a good ranger multi class combo, rangers are not the worst, weak.

But if dont know how to buildva good ranger, then such Rangers can be the worst build

So because of that Rangers are best played by power gaming munchkins, who are top optimizers and probably shouldnt be played by new players who dont know what they are doing, because in that situations Rangers would probably be the worst in that kind of limited situation.

So Rangers are not as bad as some wrongly think.