Suggestion for later level casters

[Kane0]

In general, just because you have a (great) idea and I boldly claim that I can script it, does in no way mean that a) it's feasible, b) that driller thinks it's a good idea and c) that driller feels he can do the maintenance even if d) he actually lets someone else fiddle with the scripting.

Absolutely, that's why I said

But first: perhaps a poll or something ti determine what to focus on, and what direction to take. Should we start at the top and work backwards? How many spells do we actually want to change, and which ones? How drastically to we want to deviate from stock? Are people OK with such changes in the first place?

If Driller is the one to put together the vote, by default he gets first and final say

Increase the DC of spellcasters on selected spells.
and/or
Decrease the saves of the monsters.

Now, this will disrupt game balance and will also affect PvP (which is something I usually ignore on my world, since I don't like PvP). It will recquire los of work and lots of testing. I'm not betting on driller being keen on it.

At it's simplest we could do +1 DC per two epic levels and increase the damage cap. We could do 1-2 spells at a time.
Decreasing monster saves would also be great, for casters and for those On-Hit save or X weapons.

[Ming]

At it's simplest we could do +1 DC per two epic levels and increase the damage cap. We could do 1-2 spells at a time.
Decreasing monster saves would also be great, for casters and for those On-Hit save or X weapons.

This could be good, we still wouldn't scale as good as melee characters typically do. But we would be in a much better position then the current nwn mechanics, without going overboard.

[Kane0]

Hellball and Greater Ruin would miss out though, neither have scaling damage.

[Cornflower]

Hellball and Greater Ruin would miss out though, neither have scaling damage.

Those are kind of easy. Here's the script for Hellball's damage:

//Roll damage for each target
nDamage1 = d6(10);
nDamage2 = d6(10);
nDamage3 = d6(10);
nDamage4 = d6(10);
// no we don't care about evasion. there is no evasion to hellball
if (MySavingThrow(SAVING_THROW_REFLEX,oTarget,nSpellDC,SAVING_THROW_TYPE_SPELL,OBJECT_SELF,fDelay) >0)
{
nDamage1 /=2;
nDamage2 /=2;
nDamage3 /=2;
nDamage4 /=2;
}
nTotalDamage = nDamage1+nDamage2+nDamage3+nDamage4;
//Set the damage effect
eDam1 = EffectDamage(nDamage1, DAMAGE_TYPE_ACID);
eDam2 = EffectDamage(nDamage2, DAMAGE_TYPE_ELECTRICAL);
eDam3 = EffectDamage(nDamage3, DAMAGE_TYPE_FIRE);

Not that complicated to add some scaling depending on level. The question is rather, should you? The idea of hellball is that it's a magical nuke, not depending on the level of the caster.

Here's the script for Greater Ruin. You can see that it would be fairly easy to increase the DC:

int nSpellDC = GetEpicSpellSaveDC(OBJECT_SELF);

if (spellsIsTarget(oTarget, SPELL_TARGET_STANDARDHOSTILE, OBJECT_SELF))
{
//Fire cast spell at event for the specified target
SignalEvent(oTarget, EventSpellCastAt(OBJECT_SELF, GetSpellId()));
//Roll damage
int nDam = d6(35);
//Set damage effect

if (MySavingThrow(SAVING_THROW_FORT,oTarget,nSpellDC,SAVING_THROW_TYPE_SPELL,OBJECT_SELF) != 0 )
{
nDam /=2;
}

effect eDam = EffectDamage(nDam, DAMAGE_TYPE_POSITIVE, DAMAGE_POWER_PLUS_TWENTY);
ApplyEffectAtLocation (DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, EffectVisualEffect(VFX_FNF_SCREEN_SHAKE), GetLocation(oTarget));
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, EffectVisualEffect(487), oTarget);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, EffectVisualEffect(VFX_COM_BLOOD_CRT_RED), oTarget);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, EffectVisualEffect(VFX_COM_CHUNK_BONE_MEDIUM), oTarget);
DelayCommand(fDelay, ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eDam, oTarget));
}

Just to provide another example, here's the code for the (useless, due to low DC) dragon breath of a RDD where the DC and damage is set. Not too complicated to edit.

int nType = GetSpellId();
int nDamageDice;
int nSaveDC = 19;

int nLevel = GetLevelByClass(37,OBJECT_SELF);// 37 = red dragon disciple

if (nLevel <7)
{
nDamageDice = 2;
}
else if (nLevel <10)
{
nDamageDice = 4;
}
else if (nLevel ==10)
{
nDamageDice = 6;
}
else
{
nDamageDice = 6+((nLevel -10)/3);
nSaveDC = nSaveDC + ((nLevel -10)/4);
}

int nDamage = d10(nDamageDice);

[Kane0]

Hey Driller, would you be willing to put together a poll or something for people to have their say? Leave it open for a few weeks to get some good feedback?

1) Do you have trouble with targets failing saving throws as an epic spellcaster? If so, which targets or areas?
2) Do you have trouble with target spell resistance / immunities as an epic caster? If so, which targets or areas?
3) Do you have trouble with spell damage as an epic spellcaster? If so, which spells?
4) Would you like to see script changes to any of the above? Why or why not?
4a) Would you like to see the damage cap (X-per-caster-level, maximum Y) of spells increased, and/or fixed damage spells scale with level?
4b) Would you like to see spell DC increase with level for epic characters?
4c) Would you like to see equipment that boosts spellcasting effectiveness?
5) Do you have any other thoughts you would like to add? Please do so here!

Sorry, tried to be impartial in my example.

[driller]

You are welcome to create your own poll. But, the problem with lower saves is that there are a lot of spells that will enable casters to do very cheesy things. It's like a PC with devastating critical, and that's only one thing, spellcasters have a lot more.

Hey Driller, would you be willing to put together a poll or something for people to have their say? Leave it open for a few weeks to get some good feedback?

1) Do you have trouble with targets failing saving throws as an epic spellcaster? If so, which targets or areas?
2) Do you have trouble with target spell resistance / immunities as an epic caster? If so, which targets or areas?
3) Do you have trouble with spell damage as an epic spellcaster? If so, which spells?
4) Would you like to see script changes to any of the above? Why or why not?
4a) Would you like to see the damage cap (X-per-caster-level, maximum Y) of spells increased, and/or fixed damage spells scale with level?
4b) Would you like to see spell DC increase with level for epic characters?
4c) Would you like to see equipment that boosts spellcasting effectiveness?
5) Do you have any other thoughts you would like to add? Please do so here!

Sorry, tried to be impartial in my example.

[Ming]

You are welcome to create your own poll. But, the problem with lower saves is that there are a lot of spells that will enable casters to do very cheesy things. It's like a PC with devastating critical, and that's only one thing, spellcasters have a lot more.

Hey Driller, would you be willing to put together a poll or something for people to have their say? Leave it open for a few weeks to get some good feedback?

1) Do you have trouble with targets failing saving throws as an epic spellcaster? If so, which targets or areas?
2) Do you have trouble with target spell resistance / immunities as an epic caster? If so, which targets or areas?
3) Do you have trouble with spell damage as an epic spellcaster? If so, which spells?
4) Would you like to see script changes to any of the above? Why or why not?
4a) Would you like to see the damage cap (X-per-caster-level, maximum Y) of spells increased, and/or fixed damage spells scale with level?
4b) Would you like to see spell DC increase with level for epic characters?
4c) Would you like to see equipment that boosts spellcasting effectiveness?
5) Do you have any other thoughts you would like to add? Please do so here!

Sorry, tried to be impartial in my example.

What about the thought of scaling the damage for the damage spells? Like just an example making Horrid Wilting capable of doing 30d8 or 35d8 of damage instead of 25. Things like this keep the integrity of the saving throws, but scales the damage a bit better, assuming the dice rolls for damage are good of course.

It is kind of silly that an epic caster, who focuses almost all their power into caster lvls can do more damage by sitting still and let a monster hit them then they can with their spells. Though as stated in previous posts, this is still technically an nwn issue overall. I am also only considering PvM as pvp has 0 interest for me in any way, shape, or form.

[driller]

I have no problem with that. List ten spells that need scaling.

You are welcome to create your own poll. But, the problem with lower saves is that there are a lot of spells that will enable casters to do very cheesy things. It's like a PC with devastating critical, and that's only one thing, spellcasters have a lot more.

Hey Driller, would you be willing to put together a poll or something for people to have their say? Leave it open for a few weeks to get some good feedback?

1) Do you have trouble with targets failing saving throws as an epic spellcaster? If so, which targets or areas?
2) Do you have trouble with target spell resistance / immunities as an epic caster? If so, which targets or areas?
3) Do you have trouble with spell damage as an epic spellcaster? If so, which spells?
4) Would you like to see script changes to any of the above? Why or why not?
4a) Would you like to see the damage cap (X-per-caster-level, maximum Y) of spells increased, and/or fixed damage spells scale with level?
4b) Would you like to see spell DC increase with level for epic characters?
4c) Would you like to see equipment that boosts spellcasting effectiveness?
5) Do you have any other thoughts you would like to add? Please do so here!

Sorry, tried to be impartial in my example.

What about the thought of scaling the damage for the damage spells? Like just an example making Horrid Wilting capable of doing 30d8 or 35d8 of damage instead of 25. Things like this keep the integrity of the saving throws, but scales the damage a bit better, assuming the dice rolls for damage are good of course.

It is kind of silly that an epic caster, who focuses almost all their power into caster lvls can do more damage by sitting still and let a monster hit them then they can with their spells. Though as stated in previous posts, this is still technically an nwn issue overall. I am also only considering PvM as pvp has 0 interest for me in any way, shape, or form.

[Kane0]

Just in terms of damage cap?

Ball Lightning
Blade Barrier
Bombardment
Chain lightning
Cone of Cold
Earthquake
Flame Strike
Firebrand
Fire Storm
Horrid Wilting
(leaving out IGMS for potential balance issues)
(Ice Storm would have made the list but actually already scales with no cap, just very slowly)

Also for your consideration:
Cloudkill and Undeath to Death (HD cap)
Power Word, Stun and Power Word, Kill (HP per caster level)
Heal and Harm (HP per caster level)

[Ming]

I have no problem with that. List ten spells that need scaling.

You are welcome to create your own poll. But, the problem with lower saves is that there are a lot of spells that will enable casters to do very cheesy things. It's like a PC with devastating critical, and that's only one thing, spellcasters have a lot more.

What about the thought of scaling the damage for the damage spells? Like just an example making Horrid Wilting capable of doing 30d8 or 35d8 of damage instead of 25. Things like this keep the integrity of the saving throws, but scales the damage a bit better, assuming the dice rolls for damage are good of course.

It is kind of silly that an epic caster, who focuses almost all their power into caster lvls can do more damage by sitting still and let a monster hit them then they can with their spells. Though as stated in previous posts, this is still technically an nwn issue overall. I am also only considering PvM as pvp has 0 interest for me in any way, shape, or form.

Alright, well if we are considering spells for scaling. Then they really should only be spells of 6th lvl or higher imo. So 10 spells needing improved scaling in nwn. Also, usefulness of some of the spells may be debatable, but in the context of just improving damage to a playable state. Im not listing firestorm because unless you have corrected it there is a bug in the spell scripting in nwn that has the spells damage uncapped. (most people don't know this though and go off spell description) Though if you did fix the scripting, then I would include it over one of the spells listed.

1 Horrid Wilting
2 Meteor Swarm
3 Sunburst
4 Delayed Blast Fireball
5 Chain Lightening
6 Blade Barrier
7 Earthquake
8 Sunbeam
9 Bombardment
10 Storm of Vengeance (though since its such a large area of effect Im not sure how much more per round would be balanced, but this is still a 9th lvl spell we are talking about)

Though, if we did include 5th lvl spells into consideration there are several more there for consideration as well. Have to draw a line somewhere though due to metamagic feats I would think.

[Kane0]

Wow, that would make Firestorm almost the gold standard for epic scaling spells.
Unless it’s been corrected in a Beamdog patch?

Edit: some of those don’t scale by default though, that would he redoing how the spell works. Not that i mind at all, but others might read the description and call it a day at that.
Also some 5ths are great for use with metamagic, i reckon some of those should make the cut.

[Ming]

Wow, that would make Firestorm almost the gold standard for epic scaling spells.
Unless it’s been corrected in a Beamdog patch?

Edit: some of those don’t scale by default though, that would he redoing how the spell works. Not that i mind at all, but others might read the description and call it a day at that.
Also some 5ths are great for use with metamagic, i reckon some of those should make the cut.

No so far beamdog hasn't corrected it. There is a fix on the nwn vault for people who wanted to cap it, and the scripting probably isn't all that hard so Driller might have capped it. The biggest issue the firestorm spell has imo is evasion/improved evasion, see the spell is supposed to have a save for the fire and for the divine, however if fire part is evaded, then the divine part never triggers. This is assumed to be a bug in functionality.

I would consider the gold standard Flame arrow oddly enough, its the only spell that legit without being bugged never stops scaling (besides the damage shields I guess) Cause if you take 40 lvls of caster you will have 10 arrows resulting in 40 dice of damage. Kinda funny for a lvl 3 spell. Makes a great max'd spell as a result.

If driller were to implement this, I am sure he can add a few lines of text to some npc early on detailing the changes so people are aware.

[Kane0]

I would consider the gold standard Flame arrow oddly enough, its the only spell that legit without being bugged never stops scaling (besides the damage shields I guess) Cause if you take 40 lvls of caster you will have 10 arrows resulting in 40 dice of damage. Kinda funny for a lvl 3 spell. Makes a great max'd spell as a result.

Eh, it has its own problems though. It's 3rd level so low DC, single target and each arrow can be saved/evaded and resisted separately which is unfortunate. Fantastic Mantle shredder though.
It's a shame Fire Storm separates its Fire and Divine damage in a similar way, I get the feeling that it shouldn't do that from its description.

Ice Storm scales too, but it's 1d6 for every 3 caster levels so pretty poor scaling. But like Horrid Wilting it doesn't need to worry about Evasion which is nice, and can use metamagic.

[driller]

I have bumped up the max caster level(30) on most of these spells. We will see how it goes.

[Cornflower]

I have bumped up the max caster level(30) on most of these spells. We will see how it goes.

Wheeeeee! Time to try a spellcaster!!!!