The Lack of Hide Gear for Rogues and Sneaker's!

[klin brightaxe]

Here is what I got for spot Item's already in game Myles

gtr belt of guilding light >> +4 spot / Listen
Watchman's Helm >> +8 spot/ listen
Watchman's club >> +2 spot /listen
Eaglebow >> +2 spot

Total's = +18 spot / +14 listen >> all added to gether.

So with those 4 items you almost equal the total's of the said Item's I requested to be put into Akon's for the sneaker's which is all added up to be >> +20 hide / +10 Move silenty . So why add more stop item's when there are 4 already?

But if you want lets throw in few +10 items with spot on them into Akon's just to make you happy I will go for that if and only if I get the 3 item's for the Rogues and sneaker's put into Akon's. Robe of Blending +10 hide, Elven Cloak +10 hide, and Elven Boots +10 MS.

But really why add more Spot item's when I just proved my point ... Sneaker have to haggle and fight over drops and the other builds can just walk into Marvales and Akon's and buy the spot item's off the shelve's. Let's not forget those nice DM's who pass out Gem's of Seeing to the nice non-sneaker builds.

currently this is what we have on the server.

non-sneaker builds get >> +18 spot / +14 listen from item's in shops both Akon's and Marvale ... plus the lucky DM pet's get the +50 Gem of Seeing

Sneaker builds get >> nothing. unless they luck out and get a RoB in a drop ... good luck my Sneaker friends.

What I purpose to be put in Akon's >>

non-sneaker's +18 spot / +14 listen from in store item's already in game >> Plus Myles you can add one +10 spot or/and listen item

the Sneaker's get the >> +20 hide / +10 move silenty >> with the Robe of Blending(+10 hide), Elven Cloak(+10 hide), Elven Boots(+10 move silently)

I could live that Myles ... but remeber Myles I am not doing this for myself I am doing it for those who are in my guild who are not power builder's and want to have a good time Rping a sneaker and have the good gear like the build's on the server.

I have to aggree with Hordack when you add it up non sneakers get about a two point advantage all together. Not to mention mages true seeing.

[ST_DM_Myle]

Sneakers are Sneakers.... it is a specialist catagory of rogue type characters... But all rogues have a natural talent and applicable RP when it comes to sneaking around....
If they want to put skill points to other skills, then they should increase their INT modifier and spend the added skill points generated... But wait, if the ability points are shifted from one ability to INT instead, that effects the effectiveness of the character to do other things, right?

Thats called balance.


Stop expecting to be well-rounded AND a be a specialist at the same time.


Long answer:

Rogue build.... easy version:
level 40=43 skill points to hide
Stealth=+2
Skill Feat: Hide=+3
Epic Skill Feat: Hide=+10
Minimal Dex that any respectable Rogue should have 26=+8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walking around hide=66

Rings (easily obtainable and forgeable)=+6 each (+12)

Even with no other items other than these rings and the birthday suit.... this is a respectable 78
Add Dex buffs and you have 84.

Not too shabby for being what minimum effort yeilds. Non-spot oriented characters will not see your character EVEN with +50 spot from truesight.



The fact is, the Spotter builds foresake many options to specialise not in the RP of countering sneakers who seek information or to lighten pockets, but generally ... in sacrifice to the hope of avoiding being harassed by abusive sneakers. While some Spotters are based on the PC's RP, most are designed on an OOC bases just to avoid griefers.

Spotter build .... easy version:
level 40=43 skill points to spot
Alertness=+2
Skill Feat:spot = +3
Epic Skill Feat: Spot= +10
Minimum Wisdom a spotter should have if they are serious: 26 ( and unless they are a wisdom based build, this is hugely punitive to the character) +8 modifier
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Walking around Spot=66

Easy to get gear:
gtr belt of guilding light >> +4 spot / Listen
Watchman's Helm >> +8 spot/ listen
Watchman's club >> +2 spot /listen
Eaglebow >> +2 spot

None of which is useful or practical to anyone except for the offered spot bonuses... and if the situation turns hostile, using these items will probibly mean death.... not using them will mean being blind to the sneaker which also equals a fair chance of death. But... anyways...

Lets say the someone got some lucky forging on the Belt and helm...

Lets add in full wisdom buffs for +6 also

Thats a Spot of 88 (with crappy gear)
or
Thats a Spot of 84 (if just using the items that MIGHT be forgable into usefullness in PvP)




84==84..... right?
We have achieved balance: Theory busted....



What next? Spells?!

Yes, Truesight gives +50.

Sneaks have scrolls that give +4 and +10.... 50 =/= 14... right?
So this is the source of the problem?..... So far I am on the money, correct?




Wrong....


You see.... both sets of opposing spell effects are duration based. To have Truesight up, one has to cast it.... in the HOPE that it will be up IN CASE some sneaker shows up. This is effectivily a defensive or reactive effect.

On the other hand, Sneakers have the ability to prepare. Sneakers do not run around with this +14 up in the HOPE that they will have it ready IN CASE the chance to sneak around shows up. This is effectivily a determined action and considered effect.

See... you did not realise how complex all this is did you. Or maybe you do and hoped that I did not?

Sneakers seek out their Mark, prepare out of sight and return to do what sneakers do.
The Marks have to maintain a constant awareness to avoid being a victim.

Who has the advantage?

Only one of them 'knows' their intent.
Only one of them can scope out the scene and select to act or pass.
Only one of them can abort the action before being caught.
Only one of them can wait to act until a vulnerable moment to strike.

The Sneak already holds all the cards.


Giving the sneak additional gear.... with item based (effectivily) permanent bonuses to their specialisation that just happens to be IDEAL to have forged and perfect for all range of character activity....

That would not be balance.


This is why those items are rare loot.

So that a rare lucky rogue actually can have a shot at tipping the balance..... but then... druids and clerics (wisdom based) are also the natural counters to those lucky rogues.

Again, the result is balance: Theory Busted...




So yes, Hordack, I did get around to giving you the long list of numbers. Just like I have done multiple times on this exact some issue and to the exact same effect....




Short answer: Request denied.


Myle

[ST_DM_Myle]

So I just have to run there and back? I can do that ... remeber you didnt say anything about killing anything *evil grin* thank god for Gtr sanct. hehe

Sure, but I have to be on and I'll prep the fallen Pallies.

Myle

[Axe Madness]

i walk around with 116hide on my sneak get spotted by the world =/
all my chars have 94+spot to bust 90 hide gets complicating with out ROB you might get 90 with camo mass camo and one with the land while dude with base 44ish spot +scroll is sittin on 94 with basically no need to drift away from the decked out gear that = useful nailin yourself to wear a belt with spot on it don't happen much or bow. .helm maybe >.> plus i got lot of crap from people to ~_~ anddd the sneakas lvling territory or lest was back when i was lvlin mine point being umgahs ~_~ sneaker has not shot of beating it basically straight up probably can scroll it to death witch might be what someone would tell me since blabin about it scrolls work there expensive you can burn up stacks of 10 really fast just fighting stupid mage with them if i don't box the mofo i burn stack of greater restores purty fast and minor QuEsTiOn about umgah mage does the mage have some sort of trigger regarding spawns you don't just find the mage alone and if you do give it few seconds and your mobbed like non other or when you runnin around and there is no spawns well guess what you find mage and there they are every single one of em mass monster pile ups =lag for me plus gaphic whore epic spells=probably a crash and if your at like half life when you disconnect you come back dead witch i think is in place to prevent loggers?

[Roland Deschain]

Ok first willing to take anymore sneakers to the fort for the reward??

Secondly, I do think that maybe the RoB drop ratio might be looked at. I have played here for I think going on 2 years and I have not had one drop. I have made probably 25 level 40's and have a few characters with over 1 million xp (and a couple that have killed enough to have that but they do not get leveled)

I think adding a cloak that has plus 10 Hide will be a little overpowering for EVERYONE to have. I think that should stay as a DM reward.

Boots of elvenkind are rather easy to find. I have 5 or 6. Another Move Silent Item may be needed though, maybe improve the Cloak of the Rogue from plus 1 to plus 6.

Also Hide can be elevated by 24 points with Buffs (in the form of spells,potions, wands and or scrolls)

And Myle In your Hide vs spot equation you forgot to add in Detect mode Which is a max of +20 spot. (in the case of elves a guaranteed +20)

For those sneakers who are not lucky enough to find a RoB, You can make a trip to the thieves guild and get a set of armor that has +6 Hide and +6 Move silently on it (Shadow Legion Armor). Your ac will be dropped considerably, but you will have more stealth skills.

If we want to see any items that need to be added then we need to look at the lack of obtainable or useful Move silent Items.
Boots of elven kind +10
Cloak of the rogue +1
Last Word Robes (good luck getting these) +10
Rogue Links +6 (but you lose 4 hide and ALOT of AC) This item may be more useful if made into a robe
Small Shield (rare drop) +6

While this may look like alot, 1 of them you can not get unless you are a Long time vet and 2 of them are not very useful compared to the other items available in those slots. Hide has buffs that can take it up by 24 points. Move Silently has A buff that can raise it by 4 points. Also the same equation that was used in calculating spot can be used for Listen.

Edit : I was thinking of Rogue Links not shadow legion armor

[Hordack]

Shadow legion armor +6 (but you lose 4 hide and ALOT of AC) This item may be more useful if made into a robe

Shadow Legion Armor is only +5 hide to and the max dex bounus is 6 making the useless for a a normal sneaker which has a Dex of 40+

Rogue Links is +6 hide and move silently and max dex bounus 4 making it another useless item for a noamal sneaker which has Dex of 40+

Oh Myles all that useless sopt gear you pointed out infact I use two of those item's disspelling the fact it is useless. Funnny you call it useless and I use the stuff to in fact spot Sneakers. *laughs*

Then your forget the issue how in the past so hard to get the "gem of Seeing" and strangely so many poeple have them these day's... DM's handing out candy these day's?

Yes you we talk about potions, scrolls and wands and the such ... tell me this how Druids on this server other then mine that will supply said item's to the local thieve's guild? That would be NONE!

But I know lots of clerics who are willing to cast true seeing on the poor little players to protect them.

But I could rediesign my build just be drop all the hide take Fighter/Rogue/WM remove the dust from my Amber weapon sit in Umgah's wait for first group of players to come by ... spam time stop ... kill them all ... then PP their corpses ... then raise them and walk away all in the name of a RP highway robbery ... then you can listen to the noobs whine cause they got jacked by a Highwayman instead of a Sneaker *evil Laughter* Then again this give the Hunter's something to do Raven mite be happy for it.

Or you can get off this kick that every sneaker build is like mine has the 125+ hide and 110 MS when fully buffed has the access to potions, scrolls, and the wands I use for my special build.

I request have these item's for those who cannot build the "perfect Sneaker" I am talking about the 5 member's in my guild who don't have perfect builds and the dozen or so other's I am looking at recruiting. Should I go up to them say>>

"Hey you have to rebuild you character cause the DM's around here don't like sneakers and won't provide the gear we could use so you have to rebuild tweak your build and I'll send you a email with the build so you can do this"

Don't know about you Myles but this is total turn off to somebody just wants to play and RP a Rogue/sneaker.

[Roland Deschain]

If you want someone to help with potions wands and scrolls. My ranger would be happy to get paid for helping your guild out.

The RoB will not affect the balance too bad, neither will the Boots. But the cloak is not good to add in my opinion.

Myle alright your numbers were 84 hide and 84 spot. Lets toss in detect mode spot is now 84-104, with an average Roll of 10 for 94

That means if the Robe of blending was added back then we achieve true balance. 94 Hide and 94 Spot

Add the Robe of blending OR the cloak, And then add the Boots of Elven Kind.

[Doofy Britches]

Hordack, Myles-

I hear you BOTH on this one. Both great points. This iS a high magic server though.... so access via drop or purchase of said items would be very nice. It would be nice to clarify if in fact, if those nicer sneaker items are on the drop list at all. Also.. last I was at Akon's.. (two days ago) you could buy boots of Elvenkind.

Suggestion: Make said items avaibable at Akon's... with with a high lvl limit to use (30's+) so that we don't have a bunch of level 15 sneaks running around with 100 hide/MS.

Suggestion- Since thieves have a guild.. and a place to buy sneaky gear.. instead of making said rarer items available at Akon's.. why not make it available in the guild.. for an equal "Con" price? How about even better and helping RP.... make them quest items....so the aspiring specailist has to achieve something first.

Suggestion: Spot items to counter could maybe be more available and cheaper for those wishing to purchase them to counter the hide/ms.

I really like Myles point between being a generalist- (like the two rouges I have on the server) and being a specialist. Rouges built to specialize really do have it all over the other classes- and do have the advantage of pre-meditation. This is why I like the no PvP rule in the keep... at least there's some sanctuary against the ever watchful rouges.

However, via two years of play on the server- I've have earned in drops, a few RoB's, many BoE's... but I've never even heard of or SEEN the other items that Hordack mentions- and he has a real point about at least making them a bit more available in game- if there's some fair and reasonable fashion in which to do that and not upset balance.

Thoughts?

[Andrun]

i walk around with 116hide on my sneak get spotted by the world =/

Really? I must be doing something wrong with my build then, despite not jumping on the skill foci feats. Eldrun's got 43 spot and breaks 100 spot buffed with wisdom and true sight. Andrun, buffing to 48 (+19) Wisdom, only has 112. Does everyone go traipsing through town and out in the wild in full spot gear?

[Milk_Chocolate]

I agree with Myle, there is balance the way things are right now, and I hope it stays that way. But I think the sneakers reading this forum dont understand a few things:

1) You claim you want to have an rp rogue and you want set trap, persuade, whatever, bla bla bla. Well theres a quote that goes like this:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

You want craft trap, set trap, search, open lock, hide AND move silently? Great, go for it, but dont expect to be the best at any individual skill if you want to be the jack of all trades.

2) The effort sneakers put into getting great hide and move silently occurs at a smaller loss than characters who want great spot and listen.

Check this out:
-Scenario A: A sneaker has excellent hide and move silently; he beats almost everyone because he is hard to spot.
-Scenario B: A "spotter" has excellent spot and move silently-- both skills are good enough to spot the sneaker in Scenario A. So the spotter can beat the sneaker. But guess what? The spotter gets pwned by everyone else who isnt a sneaker, since he spent so many feats on alertness, skill focus, epic skill focus, and he has spotter gear in place of gear that would be better against other opponents.

So sure, Spotter B can beat Sneaker A... but Sneaker A is vulnerable to one person while Spotter B is vulnerable to... well, everyone but the sneaker.

3) True seeing is NOT ALL THAT GREAT.

True seeing gives +50 spot. Wow. But did you know that basically caps off any further item-based bonuses to spot? If you dont have 100 spot after casting true seeing, you're out of luck buddy.

To have max spot you *must* have 77 spot WITHOUT TRUE SIGHT! Unless youre a cleric or a druid, or maybe even a ranger with PLENTY of favored enemies, that level of spot is out of reach.

On top of that, rogues have this thing called USE MAGIC DEVICE. Smart rogues use a mord's scroll to get rid of an opponent's true sight. Oh, and also any clairaudience/ amplify buffs. Then the rogue is back in business.

4) Characters who are not elves can still suck against sneakers, even if they have better spot/ listen!

Non elf characters have to go into DETECT MODE to attempt to spot sneakers. This mode automatically turns off when the spotter enters combat. But a clever rogue who sees the spotter walking with reduced speed, directly towards him, would disengage stealth mode, then reengage it, for a brand new (and possibly higher) hide roll or, at the very least, HAVE 2-3 SECONDS BEFORE THE SPOTTER CAN SEE THEM AGAIN. Hm... 2-3 seconds... isnt that at least 2 sneak attacks? Ya.

5) Sneaking is not the only way to get sneak attacks!

There is:

-Darkness + Ultravision combo: I have made 10 rogues/30 assassins (ya thats right, no HIPS) with Darkness/Ultravision wands that can get sneak attacks with no problem.

-Flanking: a target that is fighting something else is vulnerable to a sneak attack! OMFGBBQSAUCE some people act like they dont know that!

-Knockdown: doesnt really apply to BSK, but prone characters are vulnerable to sneak attacks... AND have -4 ac!

-Shadow Daze: Maybe if people would trouble themselves and take just TWO more levels of Shadowdancer, they would realize that Shadowdaze is a powerful tool that EASILY has 40+ DC. Thats a 3 round daze if the opponent fails a 40+ DC mind attack. That is 3 rounds of sneak attacks to a defenseless opponent.

-Blind: Hmmm you know there is this spell called "word of faith"... it has no save, and it is a guaranteed Blind for AT LEAST one round. Why dont you start using it instead of whining about items?

-Stun: *digs up a dusty book called the NWN instruction manual* Hmm.... Power Word: Stun... No save... I wonder if sneakers could put this to use against injured opponents for a guaranteed stun?

-Disarm: yep this is a litlle known tactic but it works great in BSK. Disarm an opponent, and when they take their weapon back out they cant move for a good 3-4 seconds. Get some sneak attacks in, and repeat. Easy win.

Edit: highlighted #5 because its whats really important.

[Milk_Chocolate]

BOTTOM LINE: Im tired of people whining about items, whether its nerfing damage immunity or boosting sneaker gear.

Use your characters abilities, and a little creativity, and you'll realize items arent everything, and are certainly NOT the answer to your character's ineptitude.

Stop asking for changes to items and start using your darn head...

[ST_DM_Myle]

As Roland pointed out, there is even more easy to find items that increase hide and spells can up it by 10 points more than I recalled last night... erm...yesterday morning.. or... this morning... whatever...

.... but now the problem is Move Silent.... Oh... move Silent and according the Hordack... the other problem is that druids do not like to supply city-rats with stuff to bother people with.

Wait... The Druids not likeing to deal with rogues sounds like.... valid RP. Though, nothing stops any rogue from making a druid merchant character.

Elven racial bonuses do not validate the idea that every rogue of every race should have access to hide gear. Once again, the 'Detect Mode' is something that someone must 'activiate'. The comparison of a bonus that has to be activated to gear that offers a continuous that is always active is not an apples to apples equation.

Hordack, if sneaks are after you, .... just which of those two sneak items do you use?.... I already pointed out that only the belt and helm have any usefullnes that one would be able to use them on a consistant bases.... and.... I just realised... that the Bow and Club can't be used at the same time.. so thats is a DROP in spot ability of 2 points... not that this changes the 84==84 matter that I pointed out as it still proves true


Another aside.... Rogues lamenting that clerics do not mind dropping truesight on people who might be vulnerable? WTH? Now your saying that completely valid RP consideration on the part of clerics is wrong?
Fine.... but lets address this:
As I showed, it is easy to get an 84 hide even without any spells other than somecombination to max the Dex buff.
84hide-50truesight=34 point balance in the rogues favor. This is a pretty big difference, but lets go even futher and count the Detect Mode option - we will just pretend everyone always keeps it *on*.

34 pointhide-20Detect=14 points still in the rogues favor....

How many builds that are not designed to be spotters will burn 14 points for spot...... especially when one considers that those 14 points will cost 28 skill points if they have to take spot as a cross clsss skill. ( and do this while knowing that they will have to have both Truesight and detect mod active on a continuous bases to have any hope of the skill point cost being worth it?)



And the arguement to add Move Silent to the list of woes is also invalid:
Rogues earn VASTLY more skill points than any other class. How you chosen to use them is a choice that you have to make and then live with the choice. Considering that Rogues can easily gain 2 or even 3 times the number of skill points of other characters..... What your suggesting is that the server should offer favortism to rogues by continueing to force all other characters to invest even more earnestly in spot, while rogues are able to increase their hide with items and improve all their other skills simulataineously.

That is just crazy.


taking into account the +10 from spells and +6 from gear that I forgot about with my previous post.... that additional 16 points would mean that rogue hide WITHOUT the RoB, BoE or CoE and the +30 they would provide.... rogues can muster 84+24=108 hide ... and this is with an average Dex of 26. I have not personally bothered to make a dexer with a dex less that 30, but hey... thats why I lowballed... so that the numbers I presented would be reachable by anyone.

OOps... I forgot the +6 armor==112 hide


If your rogues have a problem finding suppliers, address that via RP. Do not expect the server to supply you with gear just because you can't find a druid willing to deal with you. If you want to make a well rounded character AND be able to invest heavily and specialise in sneaking.... put more points in INT.

No, I am not saying you should rebuild your character.... I am saying that the system has built in check and balances. If your build failed to take that into account, then you need to accept that not every body attempt will exceed minimum mediocracy.

The skill of a build is an OOC players responsibilty. It is not the servers responsibility to make up for a players poor planning.



If you want MORE support from the Server? How about if the rogues formed a guild, limit the amount of their guild members activity enough that their potential marks do not live in consistant fear of being someones Mark AND.... punish those non-rogue-guild rogues who PP/sneak/spy without the permission of the rogue guild. You know..... Just like Thieves guilds did in the past and the way organized crime does now.


The remarked on availability of BoE means that players can get those and send the 112 hide to 122.
With 127 as the bioware auto cieling on skills ... that means the rogue only needs 5 points to max.... which is a gap that investment in DEX can close:
Human rogue - start with 18 DEX+10 from level ups= 28 + Greater DEX feats==32 easily as a speciallist == 115 without boots and 125 with.

Toss in the possibility of the character being elven or halfling = +2 to DEX (+1 modifier for hide) at creation and halflings get +4 hide



The total equation = the numbers and the advantage is STILL tilted in the direction of the rogue.



Again=request denied.

Myle

[ST_DM_Myle]

Whats this?....

I agree with Myle, there is balance the way things are right now, and I hope it stays that way. But I think the sneakers reading this forum dont understand a few things:

1) You claim you want to have an rp rogue and you want set trap, persuade, whatever, bla bla bla. Well theres a quote that goes like this:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

You want craft trap, set trap, search, open lock, hide AND move silently? Great, go for it, but dont expect to be the best at any individual skill if you want to be the jack of all trades.

2) The effort sneakers put into getting great hide and move silently occurs at a smaller loss than characters who want great spot and listen.

Check this out:
-Scenario A: A sneaker has excellent hide and move silently; he beats almost everyone because he is hard to spot.
-Scenario B: A "spotter" has excellent spot and move silently-- both skills are good enough to spot the sneaker in Scenario A. So the spotter can beat the sneaker. But guess what? The spotter gets pwned by everyone else who isnt a sneaker, since he spent so many feats on alertness, skill focus, epic skill focus, and he has spotter gear in place of gear that would be better against other opponents.

So sure, Spotter B can beat Sneaker A... but Sneaker A is vulnerable to one person while Spotter B is vulnerable to... well, everyone but the sneaker.

3) True seeing is NOT ALL THAT GREAT.

True seeing gives +50 spot. Wow. But did you know that basically caps off any further item-based bonuses to spot? If you dont have 100 spot after casting true seeing, you're out of luck buddy.

To have max spot you *must* have 77 spot WITHOUT TRUE SIGHT! Unless youre a cleric or a druid, or maybe even a ranger with PLENTY of favored enemies, that level of spot is out of reach.

On top of that, rogues have this thing called USE MAGIC DEVICE. Smart rogues use a mord's scroll to get rid of an opponent's true sight. Oh, and also any clairaudience/ amplify buffs. Then the rogue is back in business.

4) Characters who are not elves can still suck against sneakers, even if they have better spot/ listen!

Non elf characters have to go into DETECT MODE to attempt to spot sneakers. This mode automatically turns off when the spotter enters combat. But a clever rogue who sees the spotter walking with reduced speed, directly towards him, would disengage stealth mode, then reengage it, for a brand new (and possibly higher) hide roll or, at the very least, HAVE 2-3 SECONDS BEFORE THE SPOTTER CAN SEE THEM AGAIN. Hm... 2-3 seconds... isnt that at least 2 sneak attacks? Ya.

5) Sneaking is not the only way to get sneak attacks!

There is:

-Darkness + Ultravision combo: I have made 10 rogues/30 assassins (ya thats right, no HIPS) with Darkness/Ultravision wands that can get sneak attacks with no problem.

-Flanking: a target that is fighting something else is vulnerable to a sneak attack! OMFGBBQSAUCE some people act like they dont know that!

-Knockdown: doesnt really apply to BSK, but prone characters are vulnerable to sneak attacks... AND have -4 ac!

-Shadow Daze: Maybe if people would trouble themselves and take just TWO more levels of Shadowdancer, they would realize that Shadowdaze is a powerful tool that EASILY has 40+ DC. Thats a 3 round daze if the opponent fails a 40+ DC mind attack. That is 3 rounds of sneak attacks to a defenseless opponent.

-Blind: Hmmm you know there is this spell called "word of faith"... it has no save, and it is a guaranteed Blind for AT LEAST one round. Why dont you start using it instead of whining about items?

-Stun: *digs up a dusty book called the NWN instruction manual* Hmm.... Power Word: Stun... No save... I wonder if sneakers could put this to use against injured opponents for a guaranteed stun?

-Disarm: yep this is a litlle known tactic but it works great in BSK. Disarm an opponent, and when they take their weapon back out they cant move for a good 3-4 seconds. Get some sneak attacks in, and repeat. Easy win.

Edit: highlighted #5 because its whats really important.

Your suggesting that players use tactics and using tools already in game.... wow, do you always expect so much of people?

Myle

[Milk_Chocolate]

Whats this?....

Your suggesting that players use tactics and using tools already in game.... wow, do you always expect so much of people?

Myle

Yes as ridiculous as tht might sound, I automatically assume that people try to use tactics, tools, and ultimately, their head. But like they say, "common sense isn't so common".

Hm.. I think I found a new signature...

[ST_DM_Myle]

Whats this?....

Your suggesting that players use tactics and using tools already in game.... wow, do you always expect so much of people?

Myle

Yes as ridiculous as tht might sound, I automatically assume that people try to use tactics, tools, and ultimately, their head. But like they say, "common sense isn't so common".

Hm.. I think I found a new signature...

You would have liked my old signature:
"Few things are as stupid as large groups of intelligent people."