Stacking soak and reduction

[Dan8145]

Says you with the exact build I'm on about..oh and Pheadra lol. I'm just stating the numbers, not saying whether they are viable in-game (cause some sure as hell aren't). Fact is..the way it works, they are the max AB's for the two. No arguing about it...it's fact. If you disagree I've have a chat with Bioware...they must be wrong ^-^.

Night.

[ST_DM_Myle]

Okay....

The concerns have come down to issues involving AB, AC and damage immunities.

Lets limit the discussion to factual data from here on out.

I am a decent builder, but not nearly as good as some of you. What we need to find out is what extremes does it take to get the 'unreasonable' AB and AC that some consider a problem.

There are some builds (DD/Sorc/PM) that can become nearly invulnerable despite low AC's with the right feats and gear.... but this characters AB is so low that they barely pose a threat to others since they can't hit them.
There are the Dexer builds with high AC and high AB... but they generally deal so little damage that ... again... they pose little real threat.

The muscle builds based on Str can have huge AB and damage potential, but usually their AC is barely passing and a decent rogue or mage will wittle them down in short order...



So what combinations are the unbalancing problems?
What changes will help solve these problems WITHOUT crippling everyone else?
Are there points at which the only fix will be painful for everyone... and how can we impilment then with the least harm to the playerbase?




In a perfect world.... what problems could you solve?
Consider this your chance to whip out your diagnostic tools and reveal pros and cons..... HOWEVER.... no more personal tit-for-tat gripes about other players characters or other players.

If you want to be part of this discussion, discuss.... those who turn this thread into a soapbox of woes and complaints will have their posts deleted.


Myle

[Morgan]

A most interesting thread. Here's perspective from a newb to the server... In 3-4 weeks time I've found one item which gives dmg immunity (10% slash immunity). With the luck of the draw ruling the drops, it's anyones guess when I'll see another. *shrugs* You can't miss what you don't already have, so no biggie.

I'm assuming that most of the people posting on this thread are veterans, probably with stockpiles of hard earned loot built up. If a person has spent all the time to collect for a set of gear giving 100% whatever immunity, or even 50% of whatever, where's the harm? Not all things or people are built the same, whether talking PvP or critters you're hunting- A set of gear designed to thwart one type of dmg may still leave you vulnerable to another.

An interesting rule of thumb I once heard- Never give the MOB something the PC's can't get... Deep Aboleth. I'm sure some of you will know what I'm refering to with that.

So, just a look through the eyes of someone relatively new. You've provided alot of good info here BTW, thanks

[Axe Madness]

not seeing to many real problems if your immune to slash odds are you have clsoe to nothing for any of other 2 types of dmg witch means he/she is basically bullet proof to a sword but throw a rock at it and they may start seein a star or two

AC/AB chars i play dexer with purty good ac but as most of you know my crits do a crushing 25-50 dmg and my normal dmg is zero max ac being well over a 100 see nothing wrong with that since i've met no one that has gotten much over a 100 anyway and person i know with 100 is mage with bigbys hand >.>

the str based chars i dunt rememeber who said anyone with decend rogue or mage can do away with them yes lol they have 80ab best one i've met anyway, but 66ac(?) >.>, he can hit the world but the world gana hit him.

no one build is gana be ''godly'' because always somthing out there that can beat you i've died you've died you beat person that beat me but i beat you kinda like a circle >.>

nerfing the items isn't really needed just cap it at 50% if anything would be done i'd say that would be better so player don't lose items because of this whole spill i'd like keep my forged bsk hood >.> couse im only 50% immune anyway. . not the point just if players start getting stuff removed because of this n that they'll probably quit if there is no refund of said stones on item

[Dan8145]

The only build I can think of that is slighty unbalanced is the Bard/RDD/PM. I've run a 5/10/25 Build with Dev Crit and 50 STR. Talking easy 85 AC and 70 AB. Gonna be fairly hard to hit, and hit's like a tank (even w/out Dev)

[DM Nexus]

The only build I can think of that is slighty unbalanced is the Bard/RDD/PM. I've run a 5/10/25 Build with Dev Crit and 50 STR. Talking easy 85 AC and 70 AB. Gonna be fairly hard to hit, and hit's like a tank (even w/out Dev)

Now is that 85 AC with Improved Expertise? If it is then the AB will be 60 while his AC is that high. My point here, which may or may not apply to this build, is that if Expertise/Improved Expertise is adding into the equation, then adjust the AB to really compare apples to apples.

[Dan8145]

Nope, no Imp Expertise.

[tropiofCancer]

Myles is right , some how the conversation regressed and now we are talking AB and taking shots at each other so lets get back to the topic . Alot of good points have been brought up on this thread and I think we can move it in a positive direction the question would be how and even if we should . There will never be a truly balanced game to everyones perspective but It is my opinion that the reduction/Immunities are way out of control . There are two options that I see but there are alot of seasoned players and DM's participating that might have better ideas . First Driller/Luceran could nerf the Immunity gear or Cap them , true I would hate losing gear as much as anyone else but since the forge drop rate is quite a bit better It won't be quite as painfull . The second option would be adding sockets or forge stones that add damages that do not currently exist such as positive/divine/magical . The second option as exciting as it sounds however would be unfair I think to some builds like soakers but it would be fairly minute . PaleMasters would feel it the hardest But players like Roland and Wing Zero will still be successfull regardless . I pick on my friends for playing PM melees but its all in good fun (Ive experimented with a couple myself) But like Roland said they are definitely the hardest to handle...but back on topic.
We touched on a few of the flaws with the slash(any) Immunities so lets talk about reductions w/o them . Lets say we cap the gear at 25% Here is what a fighter w/ a 21 con and the three Epic Damage Resistances would take from the sword crit we talked about earlier (100points of damage) . 75 points after the 25% immunity , subtract another 9 points from the Epic feats =66 , now take off another 20 from the Greater Belt = 46. Thats not too shabby even w/ a max of 25%.
On a side note I do agree with Driller that AC is something to be scrutinized as well.
Thanks again and I look forward to hearing everyones input and opinions .

[Dan8145]

I agree...just have the hoods at 25% and nothing else. Remove the possibilty of a Green/Purple (i forget) forge adding 5%. Cap/Nerf existing gear and maybe allow 3 types of hoods for all the phys damage.

Therefore the best you will get is 25% immunity and /20 resistance. With the 1.69 coming up, even dual phys weps (scythe/m'star) will be affected. Should even out the playing field for you guys.

[Roland Deschain]

The only build I can think of that is slighty unbalanced is the Bard/RDD/PM. I've run a 5/10/25 Build with Dev Crit and 50 STR. Talking easy 85 AC and 70 AB. Gonna be fairly hard to hit, and hit's like a tank (even w/out Dev)

That is the exact build I have in mind as far as being unbalanced. My version:
human bard/rdd/pm 14/10/16

Ab of 68, 3 attacks per round. STR based
ac is 80 base. 91 buffed, with the easily used feat curse song +3 ac (technical) for a total of 94

That is achieved by Epic mage armor, Plus 4 From RDD levels, Plus TEN from PM, and then fully forged gear w/shield.

I also have the same build but using a 2 hander. More Damage but it still has an AC that is hard for most to hit.

Granted the bard rdd pm builds will not be able to kill Axe Madness's dex based wm but they will kill str based characters with ease in MOST cases.

But lets look at some other PM builds.

Ranger bard pm has 74 base ac 84 fully buffed, (uses epic mage armor and scrolls to reach max ac)

Sorc PM also has 74 base. + buffs 84 + imp expertise 94, plus Bigby's 104

Fighter PM will have a 94 ac in most cases due to imp expertise.

In the case of the Ranger, I do not think that is too excessive. But the others are Rather high, all of them are in full plate, have a tower shield equipped, and use imp expertise

With the exception of the Bard RDD PM , I think the Pros and Cons equal out alright. BUT when you have a Sorc pm that has 94 ac Before bigby it is already out of range for almost any class but WM. Possibly not allowing casting while in expertise could even things out a little. But then we still have the problem of the Bard RDD PM.

I also have another Bard Rdd Pm that has 110 ac with imp expertise If I remember right.

[Roland Deschain]

Now then Back to the issue of immunities. A cap would be the best solution in my opinion.
If I wanted to. I could probably assemble 100% slashing immunity with no problem.

[ST_DM_Myle]

Many good points.... but.... My only problem with using numbers like Tropic offered.... is this: What happens to non-uber builds?

I completely agree with you that that some of the elite builds are far and above anything the server is designed to handle and I do not mind the idea of bringing them down a few notches. I just don't want the end result to have a crippling effect on the average player.



As for the PM's being able to be so powerful, the root cause of that in most cases is that the majority of PM levels are taken = Post-Epic.
This minimizes the biggest negative to the class=its low AB.

What if we required that all PM's had to take at least 10 levels of PM while Pre-Epic so that we could make sure they receive that hit to their AB?
A level up check post epic could just scan to make sure, starting at level 21, that the character already had 10 levels in PM.



Another immunity option... what if a weakness was added?
In other words,
10% immunity to a physical damage would = 5% vulnerability to a random physical damage type.
25% Immunity would result in a 10% vulnerability.
Acid Imm=Sonic Vuln....
etc...

We could go so far as to make RDD's 50% vulnerable to cold....

...



Now, I suggest all this with a warning.... We have to be careful about starting down this path or we will end up looking around one day and realise we are playing on Arilith *shudders and jumps under the covers*. We need to becareful we don't turn into number-nazi's or RP-nazi's.




As for making Positive, Divine and Magic damage types available... it would prbibly be better to settle the imbalances we have now before adding in new things to worry about. As it is, there already are items in game that offer magical damage and ... clerics and Paladins can both buff some serious and unsoakable divine+magic damage totals on their weapons with their spells.

Positive is saved as the 'ultimate damage' for server purposes (example: vampire damage in sunlight). I do not see this changing.

[Axe Madness]

ya i see your point well or one of em if you make it to where the uber guy starts to die then the average player is gana say somthing like (insert common word starts with *cough* F and then this) followed by log out heh if world is nuked down to where only the strongest will survive the anti PVP anti build planers will die a ton times and eventually quit find that some of RP based people don't believe in basing in like just dex if it makes you better they often split dex and with CHAR just because RP says CHAR makes you pretty while you can still get to 40 eventually your not gana be like you could be

[tropiofCancer]

RP Builders and non "uber" builders shouldnt suffer over damage gripes concerning PvP situations and if I thought nerfing immunities would do so I wouldnt even offer it to the forums . But..25% immunity is enough to get you through almost anything on the server if you party up or game well . Take Nethris for instance , I go there with 25% piercing resist and a greater belt on and thats it and if I take my hands off the keys or stop paying attention Im dead pretty quickly . By the time you get into the hardcore Epic areas EVERYTHING does sneak attack damage and 25%/20 isnt a fart in a whirlwind when the damage comes ..unless your a PM of course . Its cool with me to keep Positive damage sacred , Hell its cool with me to not nerf the immunities . I got loads of stones and already mustered up 60% blud resist but I admit I would prefer balance instead .
What Myles was saying about toning down PM's sounds damn good to me too . I played PnP for many years and I think a PaleMaster is just NWN's Lich . For a mage to acheive such lofty heights he had to master 9th level spells to persue it and in my opinion it should be no different here . To me its a damn shame that a 21Paladin/3Sorc/16PM has the same ab as a pure 40th level fighter if you take the levels at the right time .
In the end its going to be Mr Robert E. Lee or Luceran who makes the final call on what they want for their server , I enjoy it here either way .

[driller]

I'm all for trying to balance things, as I have tried to do in the past. Not sure on Luceran's take, I will call and ask.

-driller

RP Builders and non "uber" builders shouldnt suffer over damage gripes concerning PvP situations and if I thought nerfing immunities would do so I wouldnt even offer it to the forums . But..25% immunity is enough to get you through almost anything on the server if you party up or game well . Take Nethris for instance , I go there with 25% piercing resist and a greater belt on and thats it and if I take my hands off the keys or stop paying attention Im dead pretty quickly . By the time you get into the hardcore Epic areas EVERYTHING does sneak attack damage and 25%/20 isnt a fart in a whirlwind when the damage comes ..unless your a PM of course . Its cool with me to keep Positive damage sacred , Hell its cool with me to not nerf the immunities . I got loads of stones and already mustered up 60% blud resist but I admit I would prefer balance instead .
What Myles was saying about toning down PM's sounds damn good to me too . I played PnP for many years and I think a PaleMaster is just NWN's Lich . For a mage to acheive such lofty heights he had to master 9th level spells to persue it and in my opinion it should be no different here . To me its a damn shame that a 21Paladin/3Sorc/16PM has the same ab as a pure 40th level fighter if you take the levels at the right time .
In the end its going to be Mr Robert E. Lee or Luceran who makes the final call on what they want for their server , I enjoy it here either way .