Role Play Barriers

[temordae01]

I agree with Viobane.

[DM_Mystic]

First of all, it aint all about you, Vio - there's about ten other people who posted in this thread, although you did start it. I don't pretend to speak for Driller, nor do I pretend to know him personally - just our interactions over the years as a player and a DM - but what I do know is that it must be tiresome, to say the least, for ANYONE to provide a free service such as this, with all of the hours of coding, building, and imagination involved, only to be constantly second guessed; have their judgement called into question constantly; and have his trust violated. Not to mention, having very few comments of a postive nature. I ask all of you to put yourself in Driller's shoes and ask yourself how much you'd like it, and how much you'd tolerate.

No Vio, if Driller were to pull the plug it would certainly be his decsion alone to make and not be your fault, but to totally disavow yourself of any responsibility would be unrealistic. As I said before, suggestions and feedback have always been welcomed; but complaining because a certain suggestion isn't implemented is not. Your (anyone's) idea might be the best thing since cooking meat with fire, but if it's not implemented, it's just simply not.

[viobane]

First of all, it aint all about you, Vio - there's about ten other people who posted in this thread, although you did start it. I don't pretend to speak for Driller, nor do I pretend to know him personally - just our interactions over the years as a player and a DM - but what I do know is that it must be tiresome, to say the least, for ANYONE to provide a free service such as this, with all of the hours of coding, building, and imagination involved, only to be constantly second guessed; have their judgement called into question constantly; and have his trust violated. Not to mention, having very few comments of a postive nature. I ask all of you to put yourself in Driller's shoes and ask yourself how much you'd like it, and how much you'd tolerate.

No Vio, if Driller were to pull the plug it would certainly be his decsion alone to make and not be your fault, but to totally disavow yourself of any responsibility would be unrealistic. As I said before, suggestions and feedback have always been welcomed; but complaining because a certain suggestion isn't implemented is not. Your (anyone's) idea might be the best thing since cooking meat with fire, but if it's not implemented, it's just simply not.

Oh my goodness!

I think I've already mentioned that the feedback I gave was about barriers to RP. Not an attack. Some suggestions, but I've already said that my suggestions had more to do with the player base and less to do with driller.

I think driller has don an EXCELLENT job scripting, coding, building and putting it all together. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't have even bothered to post a suggestion in the first place! I do not see where I have second guessed driller. I made my observations, pure and simple.

I did not question his judgment. I questioned his treatment of my suggestion, and his response toward me.

I don't get it, Mystic, why you are saying I would have some sort of responsibility if driller made such a decision, when I just started this thread in order to provide feedback to all of BSK? Feedback is designed to improve things. If rejected, fine and good. The WAY it was rejected is my only point of contention.

[DM_Mystic]

What is with all the drama-queenery? I've already said it's not all about you, why are you making it into that?

What I'm saying here is that everytime Driller ever makes any change to the server, or decides to not make a change, he gets a flood of quackery from the player base - he can't scratch his head without someone telling him there's a better way to do it. All of these things add up, and adds into the mix.

That being said, and this goes for everyone, suggestions, ideas and whatnot or always welcome, but if they don't get implemented, please simply move on and don't get all sensitive about it. Can I make it any clearer?

[GoVols]

Back in the old days any events that were run in the keep..could be fought..warriors kicked butt..mages blasted their spells and clerics healed ...but atm the only thing that can be done in the keep is run or die heheh

I can personally remember the wars against good and evil that raged...

Yes there were innocent casualties but after it all ended they were raised..the RP was awesome..

Rped arguments and confrontations..even thieves ran in fear of gettin butt slapped by the ones they just pped...now sadly the keep is a playground where sneakers who pp can run and not fear getting killed

Bring back the old keep

AGREED!

[Jazelle]

Back in the old days any events that were run in the keep..could be fought..warriors kicked butt..mages blasted their spells and clerics healed ...but atm the only thing that can be done in the keep is run or die heheh

I can personally remember the wars against good and evil that raged...

Yes there were innocent casualties but after it all ended they were raised..the RP was awesome..

Rped arguments and confrontations..even thieves ran in fear of gettin butt slapped by the ones they just pped...now sadly the keep is a playground where sneakers who pp can run and not fear getting killed

Bring back the old keep

AGREED!

That old Keep was before mid 2004 this is 3 years later. Having only experienced the Keep with NONPvp settings and had fun with it back then I would disagree changing it. As stated in another post as a newbie if the Keep had been PVP back then I would of in all likelyhood popped in then left to another server. The fact that it was non-pvp for the Keep alone made me stay and find out what everything was about. Then I went to pvp areas to play.

A server Needs to have at least ONE non-pvp area. RPs need to develope but the problems is once it gets to a heated argument often as not the pvper will just stop rping and start killing. I have seen it happen before in other areas. But in the Keep you have to use your mind to out think the other person. [Put the jerks aside for now that is in the other post.]

How many times would Raven have killed Orty for not agreeing with her right then and there or others of the Hunters? It took a while for them to learn to let me rp and not just suddenly kill the annoying drowess before I went to pvp areas and knew they would take the time to rp first.

RPs would be lost if everything was PVP. I have seen it happen on other servers far too many times. In RP tempers can flair when folks get in char. I have no problems stepping outside if the rp calls for it and Orty has done so several times. So dont' think I fear pvp. I rather like to work it into the rp and give a good reason for it.

There is room for all settings to be used in a mod. Most of BSK is party-pvp there are only very few areas that are non. In fact I can only think of 5 areas off the top of my head right now that are non and all 5 of those are in the Keep. I could be wrong but out of 100+ areas complaining about just 5 is a little bit overkill.

Because it is a newbie area and a general hub setting the Keep as Non is perfect. I don't see any reason to change it. All guilds are party-pvp and well over 75% of the mod is party-pvp. You have tons of areas to kill and mane. Why is it every few months this topic comes up to remove the few non-pvp areas?

For myself if the Keep was PVP I would just never go there to RP and you all know how much I love to RP.

[GoVols]

As stated in another post as a newbie if the Keep had been PVP back then I would of in all likelyhood popped in then left to another server. The fact that it was non-pvp for the Keep alone made me stay and find out what everything was about.

Well, there were tons of people who stayed and didn't quit due to the keep being PvP. It's funny when we discuss new people being run off by PvP in the keep. Actually, if new people were being killed in the keep, other players wouldn't stand for it. I would wager the Natch Wolf ran more people off from server than PvP in the keep ever did.

Besides, they are only in the keep for the first few minutes after they get off the boat. Then it's off to PvP area. If all these horrible things are going to happen to them, then is it better to have things happen to them in a non-public place where nobody will come to their aid?

Why is it every few months this topic comes up to remove the few non-pvp areas?

This is solely about the Keep, no all non-PvP areas. You still have the stores, temple, and den.

For myself if the Keep was PVP I would just never go there to RP and you all know how much I love to RP.

So your RP can't handle anything distracting eh? Where's the imagination?

[Jazelle]

The Keep was non-pvp when I can into the game 3 years ago. I understand the Keep was before that pvp but really that was 3 years ago. Why are you going on now so late about it?

What is wrong with the main hub being non pvp? The only thing I think that really changed it all was the wards and those were put up while I was there. Yes it made it more interesting to fight DM brought about mobs in the Keep. I think there should be a DM wand that will lift the wards when needed for events. But really you can still with npcs fight them even as a mage Orty can still revert to a sword to thrash them.

Why do you HAVE to have pvp in the hub of the mod? It won't do any good for rps in the Keep or to run off asses. I see far greater value is keeping it all as it is now and folks can just learn to deal with it.

New folks can not get into the Den and I did not know that area was non-pvp.

I can handle distraction quiet well thank you. What I dont' like is folks who use their short "Have to pvp" button to interupt a rp that was never intended for pvp. If you want to rp in a pvp area go ahead but some of us have been there done that and would rather be in a non pvp area from time to time.

And as stated before for some folks who have to leave the computer for a short time to deal with a RL matter that suddenly came up for a few mins they are afk it's no fun to come back and be pped to death or dead. Phone ring, kids ask questions, folks need you for a few mins. I know that has happen to you and others. I don't mind the interuption of the rp myself and will wait for others to come back.

I will rp in pvp areas but if the Keep is made pvp I would think twice about rping there for any long term because it is a hub and yes the jack asses will show up as well others who basically just want to do fake rp so they can prove their uber char can beat up on everyone.

Most of my rps are in pvp areas but any central rp and those that are to gather folks and share are in the Keep. Starkson is all party-pvp, Boardermarche where I do a lot of rps is party-pvp the Oasis and others. I do rp in many places.

I still say keep the mod as it is and the Keep non-pvp. I find no reason to change it other than the wards a bit.

[GoVols]

The Keep was non-pvp when I can into the game 3 years ago. I understand the Keep was before that pvp but really that was 3 years ago. Why are you going on now so late about it?

I'm not going on about it. Personally, I'm sick of discussing it. Driller brought up the topic of things being stale in the keep. They were not when fighting could occur there. That's it.

Why do you HAVE to have pvp in the hub of the mod? It won't do any good for rps in the Keep or to run off asses. I see far greater value is keeping it all as it is now and folks can just learn to deal with it.

I don't HAVE to, obviously since it's not there I've adapted. What's funny is people like you that claim some change like this would ruin things for them. You could NOT adapt if it was changed back?

I can handle distraction quiet well thank you. What I dont' like is folks who use their short "Have to pvp" button to interupt a rp that was never intended for pvp. If you want to rp in a pvp area go ahead but some of us have been there done that and would rather be in a non pvp area from time to time.

Your point is nullified by the fact there are other places that are no PvP, such as the temple if you must "rp in a non pvp area". Unless your point changes to being required to RP in a large open area that looks like the keep.

And as stated before for some folks who have to leave the computer for a short time to deal with a RL matter that suddenly came up for a few mins they are afk it's no fun to come back and be pped to death or dead. Phone ring, kids ask questions, folks need you for a few mins. I know that has happen to you and others. I don't mind the interuption of the rp myself and will wait for others to come back.

Again, as stated before this argument is null as well. You can always drop a portal to the temple and stand AFK there. That takes like 3 seconds or less. *wonders where that boot script went*

I will rp in pvp areas but if the Keep is made pvp I would think twice about rping there for any long term because it is a hub and yes the jack asses will show up as well others who basically just want to do fake rp so they can prove their uber char can beat up on everyone.

Again, same as before. Asses will be assess where ever they roam. Is it better for them to wait until you, or others, are found all alone or in public? This same problem will exist everywhere and has nothing to do if you're in a nonPvP or a PvP location. There are already rules about running up and attacking people.

Most of my rps are in pvp areas but any central rp and those that are to gather folks and share are in the Keep. Starkson is all party-pvp, Boardermarche where I do a lot of rps is party-pvp the Oasis and others. I do rp in many places.

I still say keep the mod as it is and the Keep non-pvp. I find no reason to change it other than the wards a bit.

There's an idea! MAKE an area in STARKSON'S non PvP and you and the others that are so against the TREE are being PvP can have a place to RP forever in peace!


In summary, we just disagree. That's OK. I'm the type of person though that if someone presents a problem I try to solve it, and not get side-tracked by other issues that don't address the real problem. To me some of the "reasons" against PvP in the keep, have not been reasons, atleast ones that couldn't be solved in other ways.

Like I said before, I've adapted to no PvP in the keep, but the simple fact is life in the Keep walls is alot more dull than before. An epic battle taking place every so often, or just a small fight DOES generate people asking questions about it, AND many times the get involved..........picking sides, etc. That is a FACT.

[Thanatos]

Beautiful paragraphs Govols...well executed...good form.

Jazzy...I'm just glad to see some commas in your paragraphs.

[Doofy Britches]

GoVols-

You do make some good points. Very good ones.

Well.. no matter what happens.. I like BSK and the players enough I ain't leaving.. nor griping too much.. unless its just utter mahem.

I'm always willing to try something first and see how it goes before passing final judgement. Ultimately, its the core player base that makes or breaks it. My experience other places wasn't pleasant.. hence me coming and staying here. Make the change and it could be good fun... with few feathers rumpled.. could be a mess. Won't know 'till it happens.

In the end.. when Driller says he changed it to no PvP cause the whining and DM time spend mopping things up was out of hand.. and the player base was not behaving... I tend to unilaterally agreed with the designer.
No one would (or should) know BETTER... regardless..

I've spent a lot of time on BSK.. and a change here and there isn't going to send me scurrying. I'll work with it and see.

S'all you can do.

Just glad Driller has made and is keeping BSK around, for a while to come.

[viobane]

*sigh* It is, however, unfortunate that this thread went from a discussion about how components and players of BSK have contributed to a degradation of role playing, and have again turned to a debate about PvP vs. noPvP in the keep.

I think whether it's there or not, the RP barriers still apply.

[Wing--Zero]

So. I'm sure that this post will receive some responses that fit into the "if you don't like it, leave" category. I am posting this as feedback, overall, to the community and to the DMs and driller. This is all about the role play aspects. BSK is advertised as RP-Lite. This is all fine and good, but for me, it seems that the lite is becoming lighter and lighter in favor of action and battle. It could be time to tip the balance back a bit. I think that the DMs working on epic events is a start in the right direction, but those will only happen during the event in question. This speaks more to the overall atmosphere, and if PvP becomes open in the keep, I think all of these points will become even more obvious.

The last three sentances is what started the whole thing...they were yours.
And anywho whats so bad about just giveing pvp in the keep a try for a month or two???

[Jazelle]

Here is the problem I find with your point GoVols. I have rped in the Keep for years and all that time it was non-pvp. There were major battles in the Keep, a ton of events and rp during those years. I don't see where it was less in anyway.

There are only two things I see that might of changed to what you are talking about. The adding of the wards that yes did quench some rp and event battles. And when BSK was down many of the rpers did not come back and when they did things felt so different they just could not get back into the grove of rping. I think because of the fact that NWN2 was coming out and there was talk about when it did then BSK1 would go down again. Hence rps after BSK came back on where lacking.

But all the years I was rping and came to BSK I will tell you there was a ton of stuff going on in the Keep and it was all fun and entertaining. Attacks on the Keep and other DM events that kept things going. I still have the old logs as well as copies of the rummors and stories folks wrote during that time period.

It was all while the Keep was non-pvp.

As for your statement about Starkson I find it droll. I agree with Driller that guilds should be party-pvp so no on that one. I use Starkson as a example because yes it is the only guild that any of my chars ever belonged to. Sorry I'm not going to talk about a guild I never belonged to that would be rude.

If folks felt that things would be stable for the mod then RPs will run fine. Every mod has a up and down time for rps as folks move on in their real lives to other endevers new players fill those places in time.

And using the temple for everything is a bit narrow. Your pushing everyone in to a small nitch because you want to go around and do what? Again I see no reason to make the Keep pvp. I see no value in it. I do see it as a detrment for new folks who are just trying to get a feel for the server. And yes I will champion the new people because I was there once.

GoVols I have never found your chars all that enganging in rps. Most of the time what I have seen is you going off to go duel or after a short rp fight. Not all of us rp just to have a fight in the end. That gets old after a time. Not to say I don't from time to time deal with matters by a fight or duel but I don't live by them.

I think there is far more to rps than just "Hey I don't like what your saying lets fight..."

As for things getting stale well Driller is right. I have heard in game time and time again that there is nothing to focus a rp on and little dm support unless you are a Kazra or vor follower. Many times I have tried to get chars going as have others based on following the others gods in the game only to find little support either from main players or the dms.

While I have no problems rps with just about anyone at any given time. I don't not find any reason join in on any major rp events. And before you said it no I don't have to be the center of attention in fact I perfer if ny chars were just side entertaiment and others take the lead roles. I have far more fun sidelining that having everyone toss questions at me so fast I can't answer them all. Folks like Raven and Winesa can handle that position far better.

And Thanatos as for my running on lines sorry I'm freaking tired after a 9 hour shift doing hard work. And I don't have time to pop this in Word and go over it a few times for you. I did not think this was a english test but a exchange of thoughts and ideas along with a descussion. I get really tired of folks who can't find anything more than bitching about another person's writing. It gets old very fast.

GoVols the BSK you remember I'm sorry to say I never knew but the BSK I did know I enjoyed a great deal and had no problems finding rps or dealing with matters that DMs brought up in the Keep.

What is lacking right now is focus and a general story like the dms use to do when I first started. Something that perhaps a DM need only do once a week that will keep folks going for the entire week. Myle, Unicorn and others could do that very well. The DM list is rather long on these forums. Maybe some of the DMs sitting there should get kicked in their pants to go out and drum up a story thatwill allow the rpers a change to have fun.

And no we don't need another war. Just something fun that will make you all think and take action.

I would be on more often with my chars if it was not for RL taking up my time. This summer has not been what I wanted it to be so I'm limited. Once things iron out I will be on more often... and more rps.

[Wing--Zero]

Yea but, you werent here eaithe Jaz...whats so wrong with just trying it??