PvP in the keep

[ValentianNizzle]

So while I am "just one person".. .

However.... I am...Myle

Right. I fixed your link so it now works properly.

[ST_DM_Myle]

So while I am "just one person".. .

However.... I am...Myle

Right. I fixed your link so it now works properly.

Close... lol

[ValentianNizzle]

So while I am "just one person".. .

However.... I am...Myle

Right. I fixed your link so it now works properly.

Close... lol

Still your name on it. lol

[Thanatos]

Right. I fixed your link so it now works properly.

Close... lol

Still your name on it. lol

LOL you guys need to find something better to do with your time. And of course, here I am waiting to see what happens next

[Doofy Britches]

It was a similiar experience to this, on another server, that ticked me off to no end.. and also, to another person I had introduced to NwN and that server- and caused us to leave.

It was the very reason I came to, and stayed on... BSK-

AT LEAST as a newb- I could be safe selling coin and rat skins to make my first few levels, get some experience and make some friends high enough level to help me when I ventured further. Now that I have several level 40's that can hold their own (average number of times)- I of course feel better about dealing with random idiocy. So do other senior players.

But what about new players?

A no holds barred keep is an open invitation to jackassery- which is exactly what I posted in another thread.

If the idea is that BSK is supposed to be some sort of "wild west town".. a keep on the borderlands- and thus.. much more "open".. then I can understand in the design, that PvP is also that way. It all 'makes sense" then.
I do not understand trying to maintain a server that is open to all forms of play- and having the starting area being a blood bath.

But the consistent arguement seems to be that if you have a safe area.. then "x" players will use that to talk trash and then run and hide.. which greatly offends the folks who have to deal with it. The correct remedy is to IGNORE them then- not change the server.

The other side is.. then the server is open to jackassery of every sort.. and your lower level characters pay the price. Newbs to the server pay a price. RP build characters pay a price. When the server community is run and RP is based entirely by lvl 40 PvP based character builds.. RP actually goes DOWN and suffers, as there is very little that goes on at lower levels, and less new faces joining on. I have NOTHING against lvl 40 PvP builds by the way.. not on BSK in its current format.

The high levels get "bored" ... and what do they do? run around the keep trying to "make fun".. why? who's going to stop them... there's a rest every 4 hours... DM's can't be on 24/7.. ect. etc. We have children who don't know any better all the way to 40 year olds who had a bad day at work logging on... you get all kinds of pent up angst there. With no controls in places.. angst will find an outlet.

And this forum will begin to fill up like so many others I've seen, with player disputes over PvP- PP, nerfing requests/arguments, etc. Its already started...

And what fun is there in that?

[viobane]

The other side is.. then the server is open to jackassery of every sort.. and your lower level characters pay the price. Newbs to the server pay a price. RP build characters pay a price. When the server community is run and RP is based entirely by lvl 40 PvP based character builds.. RP actually goes DOWN and suffers, as there is very little that goes on at lower levels, and less new faces joining on. I have NOTHING against lvl 40 PvP builds by the way.. not on BSK in its current format.

The high levels get "bored" ... and what do they do? run around the keep trying to "make fun".. why? who's going to stop them... there's a rest every 4 hours... DM's can't be on 24/7.. ect. etc. We have children who don't know any better all the way to 40 year olds who had a bad day at work logging on... you get all kinds of pent up angst there. With no controls in places.. angst will find an outlet.

And this forum will begin to fill up like so many others I've seen, with player disputes over PvP- PP, nerfing requests/arguments, etc. Its already started...

And what fun is there in that?

Ah Doofy... You're on the same page as I am then, it seems. I agree 100%. Only having RP by level 40's is a major problem on BSK.

And one of the barriers to RP:
http://thewastelands.org/viewtopic.php?t=1273

[Doofy Britches]

Viobane-

Let's just say that my day job involves working with large groups of people everyday.. and I have a number of years of experience with it.

That being said- the "on-line" world is a little regulated one...some less regulated than others. Driller has built a very "giving" environment that promotes gameplay between people, and little restrictions on player style.

MOST severs that are 100% open PvP... have some common traits:

1. Excessive nerfing of class abilities/skills
2. Spell and magic nerfing
3. Level nerfing
4. Class combo/or level limit nerfing
4. need I add more? (I can)

You know why? Because- what RP is.. really is.. is freedom to PvP. Evil, bad.. whatever.. most times.. the bad side. Most of us are really good people.. but it sure as hell is a lot of fun to log on and smite "the world" with your "baddie" after you've had a bad day... or too many Heinekens...

Those types of severs are weighted towards the senior characters- and they deserve it.. because they invested the time and effort to get there, no question about it.

But here comes joe schmoe (or jane schmoe) to the server- and they walk to Vogon's to trade some stuff and WHAM!! TS- ICE STORM- IGMS~~

Dead newbie. Dead lowbie. Dead RPer

All because someone let their arugument get out of hand by the tree and decided it was OK to take out everything with area of effect spells. And no DM present of course, to mitigate.

Is Mr. Newbie or lowbie having fun now? NO.

Is Mr. RP'er having fun.. not currently...but if they are sufficiently exprienced and know a few people.. they might be able to get some RP out of the situation. But this would only happen after whatever they were doing prior was so rudely interrupted.

So it goes to screenies (which seems to be a weakness in the player community here to do) and flaming on the forums. DM time is spent solving arguments, reading server logs and resolving fights, & locking forum threads...instead being part of the game.

I understand people wanting to play "bandit" type characters. That's OK I guess- but most folks I know use that as an excuse to PvP/PK when they feel like it.. without really, really really RPing the role. That's what the rouge and assassin classes are for- even an evil Ranger or Barb.. why not?
But to be really honest.. "gimme your gold or die" is pretty weak RP. You don't really offer anything to the person other than a 5 word story line to work with- and unless you're lucky and get someone who's in the right mood- you more likely tick them off, than to get "oh my gosh! finally someone who can REALLY RP stealing from me!"

I'm NOT against this type of RP.. just adding my two cents that it can be more troublesome w/no firm boundaries in the keep.. why would a person need to think that much.. ?

I guess that when I'm playing a "fastasy-game" a little realizm is OK to get me in the mood.. but too much.. and its not really a fantasy anymore.
I like to play on BSK as a server- to try my characters against the quests...and doing so with other people.
I'm not a big fan of going to the arena and testing my build against everyone else's.. but for others- that's a great night for them.

In putting everyone into the same bucket.. the balance has to be pretty good, to keep jackassery to a minimum.. and still allow for the type of RP that will pit one character and their schtick- against another.

[DM_Mystic]

I certainly appreciate the variety and depth of this discussion, but there are a few key things I wish to point out:

1. Just about every rule that we have on this mod is in place due to rampant abuses were so compelling as to motivate Driller to enact such a rule. That is definitley the case with PVP in the keep. Few of you remember what is was like when PvP was allowed there. If you think a few rule-breakers is bad now, consider what happens when you have PC's casting Area Effect spells, obliterating every char within range?

2. The prevelant school of thought on BSK is that RP and PvP are two different courses of action, and that PvP is NOT a natural development of RP. However, this usually ends of happening when PLAYERS simply run out of clever things to say to eachother. A TRUE RP arguement that goes sour can and should turn into an RP'd battle, maybe with some dice-roll checks thrown in for good measure. Every try it?

3. In any given situation, whether fantasy or real, there will always be those who try to exploit the rules. On BSK, sure there's not always going to be a DM around, but the existing remedies are pretty much the best solution of the given choices. Maybe increasing the guard population? But re-instilling PvP, ban wands, and new vigilante groups are just not the answer. Sometimes it's just better to log off and go watch TV for a while - maybe even go outside or something.

[viobane]

Come to think of it... Bandits are typically desperate sorts, or those trying to prove themselves to a gang. But once they have enough money, or enough prestige, to stop those sorts of things, they would move on to other sorts of criminal things, maybe even organizing bandits underneath them. That's playing a character role. "Give me your gold or I'll kill you" is just playing to a specific event/choice, and not to a personality as a whole.

[Doofy Britches]

DM-Mystic-

I actually got to BSK AFTER those rules were enacted.. and that's what attracted me to the server and kept me here.

I had some very foul experiences elsewhere.. and now I've brought people here.. and they've brought people with them. Some of them kids-
who don't find it fun to get waylaid- and barely even know what "RP" really is - or how to handle situations. I LOVE that the thing is set up the way it is, as it really does help, becuase of course DM's can't watch and see everything at all times... even with 40 players.

I don't want to ruin the enjoyment of folks who come to BSK to powerbuild and challenge- or play purely evil characters- they have the same right I do.. I'd just like to keep AOE spamming and bullying away from newbs and lowbies.. so they have the chance to get used to the server, meet some folks, before they get blown away.

After all.. what I've learned is, one of the best catalysts for RP.. is NEW PLAYERS. If you take them out.. the community is made up of your regulars- and that sometimes- is where RP gets stale.

[Doofy Britches]

Come to think of it... Bandits are typically desperate sorts, or those trying to prove themselves to a gang. But once they have enough money, or enough prestige, to stop those sorts of things, they would move on to other sorts of criminal things, maybe even organizing bandits underneath them. That's playing a character role. "Give me your gold or I'll kill you" is just playing to a specific event/choice, and not to a personality as a whole.

yup.. that's right.

[Queen Naga II]

I read your last couple of posts here Doofy and I found myself noddingly agreeable with all you said therein.

There are a few of us around that RP no matter our level/season. I have a few level 40's it took me nearly eighteen months to get my first to 40th. I am one of those players that actually dislikes playing a level 40 character for me thats when the boredum sets in not a start of RP.

I have actually since the change in requiring one to level up to take that level before more xp is earnt actually stopped longer at that point rather than advance.

Anyway, you hit the nail on the head for me, I don't want the opening area to be a blood bath just for the satisfaction of someone else's idea of fun. Because as sure as boiling eggs too long someone will get burnt. More often than not it is the newbie, and that is a loss to the community of this server.

I remember well back in October 2002 loading up NWN looking forward to playing on someone else's designed world. Unfortunately for me I picked the wrong server my first server. Created a charcter and all that, thought how nice to be given 2 levels free.

I got into the main city and BANG my little elf was mashed in one blow for some 60-70 points of damage by a half-orc weilding a heavy flail. I didn't even have a chance to say hello or even look at a merchants goods.

All I got was the half orc standing over my character saying "LOL me smashed elf good". Well I just logged out and never went back to that server.... so .... is BSK going down that route.

Sorry to those of you who want the keep 100% PvP, but I don't think the reason being that it would give the player base an opportunity to deal with the idiots. It just opens the flood gates, all it will achieve is a server full of level 40's who want PvP to give them their taste RP which in turn promotes PvP.

Some of us just want to RP not be killed by AoE spells because we got in the way or for the gratification of anothers view of what fun is or their insistance that it is their way or no way.

I agree in part also with DM_Myles comments in this thread too ( not that I usually do agree with him ). But I would rather see some positive action taken instead of just relying on the player base to send screenshots in. I for one have had screenshots rebound and been useless here because the simple fact is a still frame shot does not give all the facts, and due to that I for one have lost some faith in what screenshots where suppose to mean.

Someone who has been PK'ed in the past here on BSK sent in the screenshots only to find that they are misinterpretated. "But you attacked him first" "No I didn't it was an auto attack because this other player had put me on dislike before hand, so I had no control for a second or two til I stopped my character", "but you didn't move away", "I'd like you to tell me how I can move away and take a valid screenshot all at the same time it is not possible to do both"

You see faith lost in screenshots leads to view by some that they are a waste of time when they can be bent around to imply something else than what actually happened. What I am saying is there is nothing like being there at the time. Solution ..... Maybe we need a few more DM's to take the pressure off those we already have.

[Thanatos]

I've read your last couple posts too, Doofy, and I can assure you, without hesitation whatsoever...that while you're all hanging out by the tree, RP'ing...I shall be out in the bar, using the word "jackassery" like a pro. Thanks for the new word to make hip.

[Battlerager_Draco]

There are a few of us around that RP no matter our level/season.

Count me into that group please.

[Doofy Britches]

Naga-

Well.. just expressing my view. I know I'm not the only one out there that had their introduction to NwN on-line nearly ruined. Mine was actually.. but I'm too darn stubborn to quit. BSK is the first server I played on where I sat back and said.. "yeah..someone (Driller) got it RIGHT"!

While I'm not for the Keep to be wide open PvP.. I am TOTALLY for the rest of BSK being that way, and I completely support good RP and PvP based on that solid RP. I have honestly had great RP here.. and great hack'n'slash, great DM quests.. and great solo play. I too believe (cause I've seen it) more often than not.. good RP stems more from new players joining and the more seasoned folks helping.. than all of the seasoned folks standing round the tree wondering what they'll do next.

Being open to new players and bringing new players to the server and getting them having fun quickly inspires more things than anything else. You get the occasional wanker coming in.. but its the wanker gets bored because they can't kill everyone in town.. and leaves.. the players stay.

Thanatos-

What can I say? I don't stand by the tree hardly at all.. too much jackassery going on....

And there's Shally to kill...