AB/AC Values

[Yunim]

AB/AC values are not everything when it comes to PvP, but they are fairly important.

I had a thought to do an analysis on ab/ac values with all the common builds and more usefully suggest a way forward with the balance.

Inspired by Savagefool's comment I made a list of AB/AC values for a few select minmaxed builds.

There are 6 builds: 3 STR builds and 3 DEX builds. All of the builds are fully minmaxed for AB/AC stats.
Also note that the offensive builds chosen have very high AB values, most PvP builds will have 5-10 less AB than these builds.
However, although most DEX builds will have about 5 less AC than the Rog/Figh/WM, the AC values of the other builds will be similar to non-minmaxed builds.

The Pal/Bard/RDD is not buildable on BSK, it's included purely for comparison to the Pal/Sorc/RDD. Both Pal/RDD's have 14 WIS and so can cast all Paladin spells. The Pal/Bard/RDD can actually gain 1 AB if you drop WIS below 14, but for a proper comparison I wanted both builds to have 14 WIS.

The Wiz/PM/SD is only included to give an idea of maximum AC values. It can theoretically be used as a PvM tank with the correct support, but is not suited for PvP at all.

Both Pal/RDD's are at the +20 dodge cap, so there is no way to improve their AC. The Wiz/PM/SD is 5AC under the dodge cap, so a friendly bard can increase it's AC by 5 points. The other 3 builds are all 10AC under the dodge cap, and so can potentially improve their AC by 10 points (although I think only a Bard/PDK can achieve that).
I didn't include Mage Armor for any of the AC values, so any non-Pal/RDD can gain 1AC with that spell.

All 3 lists use the same builds but with different AB values.
The first is with +0AB weapons and no buffs.
The second is with +20AB weapons (AB buffs are irrelevant).
The third is with +6AB weapons and any self-buffs the build has.
All lists assume +12 to the relevant stats and +6AC gear.

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(+0AB, +6AC)
Figh10/Wiz1/AA29 (Elf)		+69 AB / 63 AC
Figh11/WM28/Rog1 (Half Orc)	+60 AB / 66 AC
Pal29/Sorc1/RDD10 (Human)	+56 AB / 76 AC
Pal28/Bard2/RDD10 (Human)	+55 AB / 80 AC
Rog13/Figh8/WM19 (Halfling)	+57 AB / 76 AC
Wiz3/PM24/SD13 (Halfling)	95 AC

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(+20AB, +6AC)
Figh10/Wiz1/AA29 (Elf)		+89 AB / 63 AC
Figh11/WM28/Rog1 (Half Orc)	+80 AB / 66 AC
Pal29/Sorc1/RDD10 (Human)	+76 AB / 76 AC
Pal28/Bard2/RDD10 (Human)	+75 AB / 80 AC
Rog13/Figh8/WM19 (Halfling)	+77 AB / 76 AC
Wiz3/PM24/SD13 (Halfling)	95 AC

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(+6AB, +6AC)
Figh10/Wiz1/AA29 (Elf)		+75 AB / 63 AC
Figh11/WM28/Rog1 (Half Orc)	+66 AB / 66 AC
Pal29/Sorc1/RDD10 (Human)	+70 AB / 76 AC
Pal28/Bard2/RDD10 (Human)	+69 AB / 80 AC
Rog13/Figh8/WM19 (Halfling)	+63 AB / 76 AC
Wiz3/PM24/SD13 (Halfling)	95 AC

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So for a rough overview of AC values: STR melee has around 55-70 AC, DEX melee has around 70-75 AC, STR/DEX melee with Divine Shield has around 70-80 AC.
In comparison, most PvP builds have 65-75 AB when using +20 weapons.
When using +6 weapons and self-buffs only, most PvP builds have around 55-70 AB.

When using Expertise/IExp this gap can get even worse for certain builds (particularly STR builds). On several +5EB servers I've played on there were practically no STR PvP builds since DEX builds almost completely outclassed them. With +20 AB weapons there is a reason to make STR PvP builds since they can actually hit other characters.
Until BSK the highest weapons I had ever seen were +8EB (and that was very rare loot from the hardest boss on the server), but I personally like the way that +20AB weapons change PvP. Your toons will get hit by the higher attacks in the round, but there is enough of a gap for the lower AB attacks to miss. Comparing that to my experience with +5EB PvP where plenty of fights devolved into who can roll more 20's, it makes fights very fast paced.

Overall I'm in favour of keeping +20AB weapons rather than switching to lower enchantments.

[Yunim]

I'm posting this here rather than in the "Server future enquiry" thread because it's easier to find and reference this way.

If the server switches from +20 AB weapons to +10 AB weapons, clerics will get a huge buff. Most non-cleric builds will become completely overshadowed by hybrid clerics in terms of AB, which is one of my least favourite things about medium magic worlds. I don't mind a cleric knowing how to swing a hammer, but a cleric knowing how to swing a hammer better than a warrior who dedicates their life to swinging hammers always seems wrong to me.

Below there are three categories and three builds in each category.
The categories are STR Melee, DEX Melee (with Epic Dodge), Ranged. DEX Melee without Epic Dodge has similar AB to STR Melee, plus going DEX and not getting Epic Dodge is a waste imo, so I didn't bother with that category.

All of the builds are minmaxed for high AB, provided that they meet the requirements I list below.
The first build in each category is the benchmark build, it has the highest AB (excluding a few niche cases) in that category in a +20 AB environment.
The second build is a melee cleric, all three are undispellable, have 20 WIS, and have a Dragon Knight summon. The melee clerics are chosen so that they have similar self-buffed AB to a self-buffed benchmark build.
The third build is a hybrid cleric, which only uses cleric spells for AB buffs. The hybrid clerics are specifically chosen so that they have the same self-buffed AB as a party-buffed benchmark build. It it possible to beat the self-buffed AB of all three hybrid clerics with other builds.

The tables contain 3 AB values.
The first is the AB in a +20 environment, which is what the server currently has.
The second is the self-buffed AB in a +10 environment, using spells only with no AB buffing items.
The third is the party-buffed AB in a +10 environment, using spells only with no AB buffing items, assuming that a friendly Bard/Cleric is in the party for the full +5 AB bonus.

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STR Melee
Fighter 11 / Weapon Master 28 / Rogue 1 (Half Orc)		+80 / +70 / +75
Cleric 28 / Bard 2 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 (Half Orc)		+70 / +70 / +70
Ranger 23 / Cleric 15 / Fighter 2 (Half Orc)			+75 / +75 / +75

DEX Melee
Rogue 13 / Fighter 8 / Weapon Master 19 (Halfling)		+77 / +67 / +72
Monk 9 / Cleric 26 / Shadowdancer 5 (Halfling)			+67 / +67 / +67
Fighter 18 / Cleric 12 / Shadowdancer 10 (Halfling)		+72 / +72 / +72

Ranged
Fighter 10 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Archer 29 (Elf)			+89 / +79 / +84
Cleric 24 / Bard 2 / Arcane Archer 14 (Elf)			+75 / +75 / +75
Cleric 12 / Bard 3 / Arcane Archer 25 (Elf)			+84 / +84 / +84

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Bear in mind that these builds are all fully minmaxed for AB, most PvP builds actually have about 5-10 less AB than the benchmark builds.
With these changes I could make a PvP cleric with full cleric casting, a Dragon Knight summon, and higher AB than a dedicated PvP melee build.

If +20 weapons do get nerfed I think it would be better to change them to +15 weapons rather than +10 weapons. That way every build can reach the +20 cap, but only clerics and paladins can reach the +20 cap solo. Epic Warding would also need to be nerfed to X/+15 DR after this change.

[itchyfunk]

Would nerfing Divine Power to remove the BAB adjustment make sense if that class is the only offender?

[Yunim]

Would nerfing Divine Power to remove the BAB adjustment make sense if that class is the only offender?

Both Divine Favor and Divine Power would need to be nerfed in order to balance it.

Any build with 15 cleric levels and 15 WIS can get the +10 AB needed to reach the +20 AB cap without using Divine Power.
Aid is +1, Bless is +1, Prayer is +1, Battletide is +2, Divine Favor is +5.

Assuming that Divine Favor is unchanged, the Figh18/Cler12/SD10 and Cler12/Bard3/AA25 both get +1 AB from Divine Power, the other 4 cleric builds get +0 from Divine Power.

[Savagefool]

This is really good analysis bro, very nice!