Ranger buff / tweak

[Cornflower]

Collected from another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3303

There has been a vote about what's the worst class to play. It's kinda unanimous that Ranger sucks very much, with 55% of the votes on the Ranger. Here's a suggestion of sorts about Ranger, what to tweak, collected from that thread.

I've tried to highlight the specific items suggested.

About Ranger.

What I did on my old PW to get Ranger more useful, was basically two things:

Provided better Ranger-Only (and AA-only) bows and ammo, so you could use the ranged attacks more efficiently. I mean, a WM can hit for over 300 points of damage per hit, so if you want better balance, you need better archery gear.

Buffed up the familiars and summons in general, so they fulfilled some kind of purpose other than RP. I did it by creating new creatures in the toolset and redirected the summons-script so it picked the improved summons instead. Another way to do it is to provide a special buff-your-summon-rod, only useable by the summoner on his own familiar/summon, which gives level-appropriate buffs. This is somewhat easier, but doesn't give you the option to individually tweak each creature. Anyway, it's not technically hard to do, if you want to make summoners more viable.

I would start by giving rangers two good saves instead of just fortitude, and appropriate free archery feats when they get their dual wielding ones. Maybe a bonus feat like toughness or strong soul at level 3 too, because of the endurance feat they get in tabletop.

Then after that look into their skills, spells, AC and gear options. Not many opportunities to make use of animal empathy for one, the relatively poor return for investment of Bane of Enemies for another.

Edit: tabletop rangers get HIPS at level 14 too, would make an excellent bonus between low level fighting style goodies and high level bane of enemies.
And yes, i’m aware that core NWN is 3.0 and i’m referring to 3.5

I can only vote for one, but to categorize the classes IMO:

Really need attention: Bards, Rangers
Could use a look at: Barbarians, Rogues
Maybe need a touch here and there: Monk, Druid, Sorcerer
Doing just fine: Fighter, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric

[driller]

You are forgetting that a Weapon Mater is usually within melee range of the mob. A ranger stands back and runs away, there is no way it should do comparable damage.

Provided better Ranger-Only (and AA-only) bows and ammo, so you could use the ranged attacks more efficiently. I mean, a WM can hit for over 300 points of damage per hit, so if you want better balance, you need better archery gear.

[Wing--Zero]

Rangers are a Diamond in the ruff type class trust me there okay as is.

[Cornflower]

Rangers are a Diamond in the ruff type class trust me there okay as is.

Since the majority disagrees, I would be interested to know in what way it's OK. If you don't want to share all your secrets, can you PM me?

[Kane0]

Provided better Ranger-Only (and AA-only) bows and ammo, so you could use the ranged attacks more efficiently. I mean, a WM can hit for over 300 points of damage per hit, so if you want better balance, you need better archery gear.

You are forgetting that a Weapon Mater is usually within melee range of the mob. A ranger stands back and runs away, there is no way it should do comparable damage.

Funnily enough, rangers aren't actually better archers than other classes. They don't get anything archery specific at all.
In regards to ranged combat in general, at best an archer usually gets one or two rounds worth of shots before the enemy hits melee range, then they either provoke AoOs or switch to a secondary melee weapon. That's the window of advantage we're talking about, and very few level appropriate enemies will go down in one round unless you're built for one hit kills. WM Crits and Pal/CT Smites mostly, neither of which work with ranged weapons.

Rangers are a Diamond in the ruff type class trust me there okay as is.

Yeah, i'm not seeing it either. They just don't get many benefits for what they give up. They are MAD, lack bonus feats and their class features are relatively minor and situational. For that you get 4 skill points per level, some minor casting and a behind-the-curve meatshield. Even for the TWF feats by level 9 it's not that great a deal as you can do the same with a fighter without needing Wisdom.

I propose a couple things to bring it closer to the 3.5 version of the Ranger, with something neat thrown in for its own niche:
At ranger level 2 grant bonus feat: Lightning Reflexes (much easier than changing the class to good reflex save progression)
At ranger level 3 grant bonus feat: Toughness (analogue for Endurance found on the 3.5 Ranger)
At ranger level 7 grant bonus feats: Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot (provides ranger a niche as switch hitter)
At ranger level 12 grant bonus feat: Evasion (later than in 3.5 as you get ITWF at level 9)
At ranger level 12 grant bonus feat: Epic Reflexes (see Lightning Relfexes)
At ranger level 13 grant Freedom of Movement
At ranger level 17 grant bonus feat: Hide in Plain Sight
Buff up animal companion to be 3 levels behind that of a Druid
Make the Bane of Enemies feat apply to all creature types

I think these would go a hell of a long way to making ranger more appealing without increasing raw damage output.

[driller]

Corn was specifically talking about ranged damage needing to be equal to WM, at least that's the way I took it. My point still stands.

Provided better Ranger-Only (and AA-only) bows and ammo, so you could use the ranged attacks more efficiently. I mean, a WM can hit for over 300 points of damage per hit, so if you want better balance, you need better archery gear.

You are forgetting that a Weapon Mater is usually within melee range of the mob. A ranger stands back and runs away, there is no way it should do comparable damage.

Funnily enough, rangers aren't actually better archers than other classes. They don't get anything archery specific at all.
In regards to ranged combat in general, at best an archer usually gets one or two rounds worth of shots before the enemy hits melee range, then they either provoke AoOs or switch to a secondary melee weapon. That's the window of advantage we're talking about, and very few level appropriate enemies will go down in one round unless you're built for one hit kills. WM Crits and Pal/CT Smites mostly, neither of which work with ranged weapons.

[The Flying Rodent]

It’s tricky.

Ranger kinda has three niches that it fills: Its the only high BAB class that gets stealth skills, it eventually receives the duel wield feats even without any investment into Dexterity (provided that it wears Light Armour or less), and it’s the class that does the highest physical damage vs certain types of enemies via Favoured/Bane of Enemies.

Outside of these niches though, at least in Epic nwn, it’s arguably weaker than every other class. High level Rangers (I.e. ones that aren’t specifically taken to multiclass with other stuff for Bane or the duel wield feats), are generally either glass cannon duel wield builds with next to no AC, or Dex based and have damage problems when not fighting their specific collection of enemies.

Rangers are also pretty much inferior to Fighter and Monk if they want to become an Arcane Archer, which deal more damage and move faster respectively. Not that Ranger was specifically supposed to be ‘the Archer class’; the word Ranger itself pertains to a hunter or tracker who fights with sword and skill, not ‘someone who likes to fight at range’.

So: what’s something that could be done to help the class? From my experience playing on past servers that attempted to do this, it’s very easy to overtune it.

For starters, I would DEFINITELY not give it Hide in Plain Sight. It’s already got high BAB, and can get duel wielding feats.

Now imagine a Ranger/RDD with no dex, Bane of Enemies vs at the very least most critical immune opponents , Devastating Critical Kukri, Epic DR, +20 weapons (so probably looking at low 70’s AB) ... and now Hide in Plain Sight to top things off. Rather silly.

Or, given the power of Weapon Master here what with no dev crit insta kill available and ‘ AB Forge gear’ being a thing, imagine a Ranger/WM/Rogue with UMD, or Monk/Ranger/WM with extra speed and 10 Attacks/ Round with Kamas, that can suddenly use HIPS. Rather overpowered, no?

So I wouldn’t give it HIPS. Maybe a bunch of save-oriented auxiliary feats like Evasion or Reflexes, but they really don’t have much of an impact here what with all the forge equipment and the fact that the engine doesn’t allow people to fail on 1 rolls like it normally does.

To me, there is one potential solution that I think could work , and it would tie in with its’ identity as a sort-of Stealth Fighter:

Give Rangers Sneak Attack Blackguard, starting at level 10 Ranger, and then once every 3 levels after that.

So it’d have 2d6 at 13 ranger, 3d6 at 16 ranger, 4d6 at 19 Ranger, 5d6 at 22 ranger etc. Given that it’s Blackgaurd Sneak Attack, it should also stack with Rogue Sneak Attack (which, yes, would make a Ranger/Rogue/SD build like Mr Minion suddenly more appealing, much to the Kazrites’ displeasure ).

This wouldn’t make Rangers ‘too’ overbearing, but it would give them a bit of an oompf in certain situations, whilst playing to their strengths. It would also only benefit high level rangers, not the ones that insert 9 levels into their build for the duel wield feats.

I personally have no idea whether this is possible here though without external downloads, or whether it would even retroactively apply to existing Rangers. That said, NWN EE was just given NWSync , so if this is being considered as a delivery mechanism for future content, perhaps something like this could potentially be used to trial it? =)

[Cornflower]

Corn was specifically talking about ranged damage needing to be equal to WM, at least that's the way I took it. My point still stands.

No, not needing to be equal. Wishing it to be improved a bit.
Mostly because you get off 2-4 shots, then you're swamped and have to revert to melee anyways. It's not like you're melee-free just because you prefer a bow.

But my main point is the animal companion / familiar / summons. I've gotten to the point where I actually never summon my companion/familiar after level 4 or so. It's useless and only takes up a quick-slot.

Just clarifying, not nagging.

[clanan]

Well i liked the idea how it worked in NWN2 where you had to choose between archery or 2 weapon fighting... but i don't think you can implement that in nwn1. But give the ranger both options makes him to strong.

[The Flying Rodent]

Well i liked the idea how it worked in NWN2 where you had to choose between archery or 2 weapon fighting... but i don't think you can implement that in nwn1. But give the ranger both options makes him to strong.

I reckon a Fighter who indexes into AA later would attain everything that a Ranger could get in the way of ‘archery feats’ in NWN. In addition to Weapon Specialisation. So I don’t see this benefiting Rangers much.

Another alternative is to buff the Animal Compainion into Epic levels. Druids can still get the Mummy, but Rangers can’t. So maybe their animal companion past 21 Ranger could receive a bit of love?

I still reckon the Sneak Attack Blackguard change at 10/13/16 etc Ranger levels would give Rangers a sufficient boost without making them too over the top. And would give people incentive to use the stealth component and not just use Ranger levels on tanks or DPS builds for Bane of Enemies or Duel-Wield feats...

[Douglas Thurman]

Ranger (And basically all familiars) Pets= One hit distraction.

I was thinking about this the other day. It's great that the familiar/pets get to advance in levels the same as their owner, but they really don't get much else. No increased stats, abilities, or AC. The only one I've ever brought out at level 20+ is the eyeball because it DOES get better rays as it levels. Pretty funny to see a waste giant get knocked down by the little critter!

I know Driller does an exceptional amount of work on this MOD and believe me it is a serious cut above others out there. We all know this. I've seen the tweaks to the epic summons. Is there any way to tweak the pets and familiars? If the Ranger or Druid got some better companions with the ability to take more than one hit from basically ANYTHING...they might be a better archer path. As it is, I've played a ranger/Wiz/AA to medium effect but only because of the favored enemies. I've never played a straight Ranger without something else to bolster it with.

[Kane0]

That’s true, epic summons are much more viable now, perhaps other summon spells and features need a similar treatment.

My heart loves the SA idea, but my head says no. Ranger isnt really lacking for damage output (except when attacking non favored enemies, they’re boned in that case), but it definitely needs to decide if it supports STR, DEX or both. Evasion, Archery feats and HIPS when coupled with dual wielding edge it over to dex focused.

For starters, I would DEFINITELY not give it Hide in Plain Sight. It’s already got high BAB, and can get duel wielding feats.

Now imagine a Ranger/RDD with no dex, Bane of Enemies vs at the very least most critical immune opponents , Devastating Critical Kukri, Epic DR, +20 weapons (so probably looking at low 70’s AB) ... and now Hide in Plain Sight to top things off. Rather silly.

Or, given the power of Weapon Master here what with no dev crit insta kill available and ‘ AB Forge gear’ being a thing, imagine a Ranger/WM/Rogue with UMD, or Monk/Ranger/WM with extra speed and 10 Attacks/ Round with Kamas, that can suddenly use HIPS. Rather overpowered, no?

Unless you have a decent Dex and something like Sneak attack HIPS wouldn't be all that helpful. Ranger/RDD or Ranger/Monk/WM wouldn't be getting all that much from being able to stealth besides withdrawing when they get beaten up or hitting high AC monsters that don't have Uncanny Dodge. Some Rogue, Assassin or BG would be needed to get solid use out of HIPS and in my opinion that makes for more interesting build options instead of increasing the power of existing ones.
Regarding Ranger/WM/Rogue specifically, how much benefit do you get compared to going fighter? It seems a decent alternative/sidegrade to me.

[The Flying Rodent]

That’s true, epic summons are much more viable now, perhaps other summon spells and features need a similar treatment.

My heart loves the SA idea, but my head says no. Ranger isnt really lacking for damage output (except when attacking non favored enemies, they’re boned in that case), but it definitely needs to decide if it supports STR, DEX or both. Evasion, Archery feats and HIPS when coupled with dual wielding edge it over to dex focused

For starters, I would DEFINITELY not give it Hide in Plain Sight. It’s already got high BAB, and can get duel wielding feats.

Now imagine a Ranger/RDD with no dex, Bane of Enemies vs at the very least most critical immune opponents , Devastating Critical Kukri, Epic DR, +20 weapons (so probably looking at low 70’s AB) ... and now Hide in Plain Sight to top things off. Rather silly.

Or, given the power of Weapon Master here what with no dev crit insta kill available and ‘ AB Forge gear’ being a thing, imagine a Ranger/WM/Rogue with UMD, or Monk/Ranger/WM with extra speed and 10 Attacks/ Round with Kamas, that can suddenly use HIPS. Rather overpowered, no?

Unless you have a decent Dex and something like Sneak attack HIPS wouldn't be all that helpful. Ranger/RDD or Ranger/Monk/WM wouldn't be getting all that much from being able to stealth besides withdrawing when they get beaten up or hitting high AC monsters that don't have Uncanny Dodge. Some Rogue, Assassin or BG would be needed to get solid use out of HIPS and in my opinion that makes for more interesting build options instead of increasing the power of existing ones.
Regarding Ranger/WM/Rogue specifically, how much benefit do you get compared to going fighter? It seems a decent alternative/sidegrade to me.

Spoken like someone that has never experienced Ranger receiving Hide in Plain Sight before. I happen to have witnessed it on another server I played on, so I can tell you what happens.

For starters, the Glass cannon strength rangers like Ranger/RDD and Ranger/WM , that has the previous glaring weakness of no AC, can just opt to disengage and re-engage combat whenever they like against opponents that lack True Seeing, which almost completely circumvents their AC problems. Rangers receive a lot of stealth buffs, and so even if they’re totally strength focused they tend to be hard to detect. Not to mention that True Seeing is nerfed here, which would make Rangers in PvP quite broken.

HIPS also helps a lot with Rangers that previously had AB problems because they had to index into something else, even against opponents with Uncanny Dodge (Dodge AC still gets lost). Ranger/Palemaster Build that can’t buff their AB much? Now you have HIPS to hit things as well as a ton of AC and Crit Immunity. Ranger/Shifter Risen Lord with lots of immunities and DR, but ordinary AB? Slap HIPS on that as well. Ranger Druid Monk dragon shifter that already deals the highest physical damage possible as a dragon in the game? Have HIPS too on your ‘36 Base dex ‘ shifter form, that won’t cause problems.

Believe me, giving Rangers HIPS opens a can of worms. I definitely wouldn’t do that.

Now, as you mentioned, Rangers that are stuck ‘not’ fighting their Favoured enemies feel pretty ordinary in the damage department , which on a PW can end up being an awful lot of the time as one moves between different environments. Wouldn’t injecting a little Sneak Damage make a difference there? We’re talking only 4d6 at 21 Ranger levels, which is what a Rogue would receive at level 7.

Anyway. Sounds like everyone has different ideas of how to improve Ranger . Sneak Attack Blackguard to just seems like the most simple solution to me. Buffing the Epic Ranger animal companion might also be nice, although I’m guessing it’s more work as it would involve changing a bunch of creatures’ stats along their levelling path.