XP for Drow and other -1, -2, and -3 races

[Nottingham]

XP for Drow and other races that have a -1, -2, or -3 level requirement is very harsh on BK2. When a drow kills a creature at level 1, he is awarded the xp for that creature as if he were a level 3 character. At level 1,this is not too big of a deal, but at level 10 and higher, this must really suck.

But back to level 1, having to reach 6,000 xp with normal level 1 xp from killing monsters is one thing, and I believe that was the intent of the xp per level penalty. But killing a creature where normal level 1 characters get 25 xp and have to reach 1,000 for their next level and getting 12 instead when you have to grind your way to 6,000 xp for your level is tourture.

[StarChild]

Ahhhh such is the draw back of ECL classes. Sorry to hear that. Really I am cz I have a Yuanti and man its bad trying to lvl her

[Caesius]

I do agree that it is a double whammy that not only does an ECL race have to get more experience to level up, but the script also treats them as a higher level character when deciding how much XP to give per kill. One thing I do know for sure is that a creature with a level adjustment can gain 30 class levels in addition to their racial abilities giving them a greater end game potential than an easier to level non-ECL race. This has to be taken into account when deciding whether or not to make a certain race easier to play in the low levels because if one is not careful then we could end up with a disproportionate number of drow or whichever race ends up being favored by powergamers.

[StarChild]

Rightly Said Cass. I also wanna point out I have mixed feelings about this. I think it truly sucks for ECL classes to have to do this but then when I think of the end game result i don't feel so bad. Best thing to do if possible on this sparce server is to form a party to help you lvl. until then you're grinding will be xtremely slow.

Hence the reason my yuanti sucky solo-er fights in groups.

[twin_snakes]

If you wish to play a drow without the xp gank then why not make a half elf and colour the skin black? Or use the half elf drow race. You got options.

[Mer`Zikain]

If you wish to play a drow without the xp gank then why not make a half elf and colour the skin black? Or use the half elf drow race. You got options.

The reason for that should be fairly obvious; those "options" defeat the purpose since you don't get any of the benefits for being that race to begin with.

Also, any comments on "power gaming" on a server that is not strictly RP (unless things have changed and I didn't get the memo) is kinda silly. If the player is creating the character to grief others, then it's not really a power gaming issue, it's a griefing issue. Otherwise, what is the problem with it? None of the ECL races are so over balanced that they make playing the game easier. At this point they actually make playing BSK WAY harder.

Consider this, a first level drow vs a first level human of the same class. The only benefits the drow has are higher stat bonuses (dex,int,chr +2, con -2) and a few piddly spell-like abilities that don't really help in battle as much as hurt by wasting time to use them. Oh and spell resistance which only comes into play if the characters are mage classes. The battle between these characters would be fairly even.

Now give them both 1,000xp. The drow is now at a distinct disadvantage (depending on class pairing). Give them 3,000xp and the drow is completely out matched. If they're both fighters you have a drow with 10hp fighting a human with 30hp (ignoring feats and con).

With the drow, the higher their level the higher their SR, which caps out at some value i can't remember. They don't get any new spell-like abilities or any bumps to defensive or offensive ability. No, what they start with at level 1 is what they have all the way to level 30. Hardly giving them any distinct advantage. The only real advantage is the SR and that's only a problem for casters who are lower level than the drow they're attacking. There are items in the game that give SR, the drow just doesn't need them.

Now I know I've been focusing on drow here instead of any of the other ECL races, but that's because I have a few drow characters that I've played for years with a group of friends that I was excited to recreate here on BSK. Unfortunately that made the game no fun to play. It would only be slightly better, in my opinion, if the xp was given based on CL instead of ECL. And hardly over powering.

[twin_snakes]

If you wish to play a drow without the xp gank then why not make a half elf and colour the skin black? Or use the half elf drow race. You got options.

The reason for that should be fairly obvious; those "options" defeat the purpose since you don't get any of the benefits for being that race to begin with.

Also, any comments on "power gaming" on a server that is not strictly RP (unless things have changed and I didn't get the memo) is kinda silly. If the player is creating the character to grief others, then it's not really a power gaming issue, it's a griefing issue. Otherwise, what is the problem with it? None of the ECL races are so over balanced that they make playing the game easier. At this point they actually make playing BSK WAY harder.

Consider this, a first level drow vs a first level human of the same class. The only benefits the drow has are higher stat bonuses (dex,int,chr +2, con -2) and a few piddly spell-like abilities that don't really help in battle as much as hurt by wasting time to use them. Oh and spell resistance which only comes into play if the characters are mage classes. The battle between these characters would be fairly even.

Now give them both 1,000xp. The drow is now at a distinct disadvantage (depending on class pairing). Give them 3,000xp and the drow is completely out matched. If they're both fighters you have a drow with 10hp fighting a human with 30hp (ignoring feats and con).

With the drow, the higher their level the higher their SR, which caps out at some value i can't remember. They don't get any new spell-like abilities or any bumps to defensive or offensive ability. No, what they start with at level 1 is what they have all the way to level 30. Hardly giving them any distinct advantage. The only real advantage is the SR and that's only a problem for casters who are lower level than the drow they're attacking. There are items in the game that give SR, the drow just doesn't need them.

Now I know I've been focusing on drow here instead of any of the other ECL races, but that's because I have a few drow characters that I've played for years with a group of friends that I was excited to recreate here on BSK. Unfortunately that made the game no fun to play. It would only be slightly better, in my opinion, if the xp was given based on CL instead of ECL. And hardly over powering.

Are you actually serious? The only reason anyone would want to play the race with no penalty is strictly for powergaming. The stat boosts to he specific stats that the drow gets are so juicy. That is why you want to play the race with no penalties.

Anyways what you are asking driller to do is change that something can be sorely exploited. If he was to do that change then all you would see are drow and yuan-ti running around because there would be no reason for people to choose other races. With no ecl penalty why the HELL would someone play a human?

[Gibbo]

With no ecl penalty why the HELL would someone play a human?

Well, there is that bonus feat... And never underestimate the potential of a few extra skill points in the hands of a craft rogue.

Consider this, a first level drow vs a first level human of the same class. The only benefits the drow has are higher stat bonuses (dex,int,chr +2, con -2) and a few piddly spell-like abilities that don't really help in battle as much as hurt by wasting time to use them. Oh and spell resistance which only comes into play if the characters are mage classes. The battle between these characters would be fairly even.

Now give them both 1,000xp. The drow is now at a distinct disadvantage (depending on class pairing). Give them 3,000xp and the drow is completely out matched. If they're both fighters you have a drow with 10hp fighting a human with 30hp (ignoring feats and con).

Aside from the typo (20hp instead of 30hp?), I don't think the fighter example is a good one for the drow race. Consider their favored class, wizard, and you'll notice that they have a bit more advantage over opposition of equal level. Throw a darkness on yourself, ignore a few magic missiles with the 12 SR to boot, and perhaps out-gun the other player with bonus spell slots because of the heightened ability scores. The ELC is in place to make things difficult for players at lower level-- especially since in such a low-magic realm, a few stat points at the after 30 milestone can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

The only real advantage is the SR and that's only a problem for casters who are lower level than the drow they're attacking. There are items in the game that give SR, the drow just doesn't need them.

To date, I don't believe there are any SR items in BSK2. I haven't visited Akon yet, however even then I only knew of 32SR items in BSK1. At level 30, a drow character will possess a Spell resistance of 41.

It's important to remember that at the moment, BSK2 is an extremely low-magic world, which means that magic items and treasure is very rare to come across. I have a level 5ranger/1assa drow that I was able to level from 1 - 3 by myself, however once I was ready to expand past the Blackstone Road, it was necessary for me to acquire traveling companions. The best way to overcome the challenge of a +2 ECL is to work in a team, however unfortunately the server population is very small in part because of the 1.23 Beta.

The ECL's are a necessary difficulty for EndGame balance. Lower level characters will always have a difficult time, but hey! You're playing a drow-- tough it up or die painfully in the name of Lolth, right? Natural selection is a pain, but the rewards will always be a comforting payoff at the end.

[Mer`Zikain]

Ok you obviously misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't asking for ECL to be removed, just the double whammy it gives because of adjusted xp based on ECL. I don't care that the character has to have 6000xp to get to level 2, only that it gets xp from low level creatures as though it were already level 3.

I hardly ever play wizards in NWN and rarely see others play them either so I went with something simple. Regardless I even admited if someone were to pit a level 1 drow wizard against any other level 1 wizard the drow would more often be the winner.

But here's the big question, if someone wants to power game (however you feel like defining that is up to you), what is it any of your concern? The only time that should bother you at all is if they grief you at which point you can simply report them and they'll likely be banned anyway. So just what is the issue? Why are you so up in arms about it?

And what is there to exploit? Everyone has their own style of play and using an existing race/class/whatever within the limits of the rules set for those things isn't exploiting anything. An exploit would be the old counterspell exploit from nwn. Basically I'm just saying that was a poor choice of words.

As for the xp thing, I don't care if driller makes any modifications to his xp scripts to give level 1 drow level 1 experience or not. I was only expressing my thoughts on the matter. I doubt anything I say or feel on this or any other topic is going to sway driller one way or another, it's his server to do with as he pleases. I have a general issue with the xp table for NWN2 anyway, regardless of racial ECL. It may not have changed but it seems a lot different than before, and a little inconsistent. Like when I was hacking zombies to pieces, at one level i was getting 65xp for zombie warriors, then the next i was getting 68xp. Then the level after that they started giving me 38 or something. In the same span the other zombies were giving me 25 or something and the next level they dropped to 15 and the next level after that they stayed at 15. Just seems a little off to me.

On an unrelated note, I'm having to type my posts in notepad and paste them into the forum. Everytime my post goes longer than the window it "jitters" at the bottom everytime I type a letter. Not sure what that's about, never did that before. Could be something in IE8? *shrug*

[Nottingham]

OK, to add more fuel to the fire, I have a couple more questions to ask about the ECL thing. If you are a +3 ECL, does that mean that you can only adventure with players two levels lower than you but seven levels higher than you?

Also, in terms of treasure drops, I bet you would hardly get anything at +3 ECL. If we look at Blackstone Road and fighting undead, level 3 is a good idea to get to in order to survive there (at least it has prover so for me), and at level 3, you will get some treasure chests there, but for a ECL +3, I bet you would never get a treasure drop if you are treated as a level 6 character.

I still have a hard time soloing in areas where I get treasure drops, but with a ECL character, this makes getting into a party all the more important.

I guess none of this takes away from the points made above, but I just wanted to add these two additional observations.

[tlantl]

What it boils down to is that wizards of the coast dropped the ball numerous times while designing edition 3 of their D&D game. Since they didn't think to give high ecl races the hit points and hit dice of the effective levels, players are penalized for some mediocre bonuses. Anyone wanting to play these races now has to suffer the major handicap of not being able to cope in worlds where the ecl is a real penalty, rather than merely a nuisance.

I tried a drow a little while ago and was frustrated by the lack of XP, so I deleted her. It is hard enough to get any where as it is, I wasn't willing to suffer more hardships trying to earn 6,000 xp when the wolves were giving me a mere 38 xp and the spell resistance did squat against the pixies confusion spells.

Ah well, I never really cared for the ecl races much any way, so this it isn't a big deal as far as I'm concerned. Too bad others who feel differently about the situation have to endure multiple penalties to enjoy their characters.

[shadowflame]

im a little unsure what the fuss is about, i have a lvl 1 deep gnome ecl=3 and im more than able to take out undead on the road, kobalds presented little problem either, maybe its because of the ac bonus that im not noticing these problems you all talking about.

[StarChild]

The xp issue with the ecl classes has been fixed Shadowflame. I have and ecl aasimar myself and she is doing fine. We should close this thread out *bumps Driller*

[shadowflame]

The xp issue with the ecl classes has been fixed Shadowflame. I have and ecl aasimar myself and she is doing fine. We should close this thread out *bumps Driller*

Ahh i see hehe well thats fine then...but id like to point out one fact i noticed earlier.
when i died with my lvl 1 gnome i was loosing 400xp and not 100, im guessing the death script is treating me as a lvl 4?..i had 6hp & needed 10k xp to lvl 2 and was finding the death penalty a pain for a little while at first

[twin_snakes]

The xp issue with the ecl classes has been fixed Shadowflame. I have and ecl aasimar myself and she is doing fine. We should close this thread out *bumps Driller*

Ahh i see hehe well thats fine then...but id like to point out one fact i noticed earlier.
when i died with my lvl 1 gnome i was loosing 400xp and not 100, im guessing the death script is treating me as a lvl 4?..i had 6hp & needed 10k xp to lvl 2 and was finding the death penalty a pain for a little while at first

That is how it is supposed to work. You should be happy your not getting xo as a lvl 4 character. That was what was changed.