Proposes changes #2

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by Cybermagi »

driller wrote:The old topic got kinda of off course. Comments please.

Balance proposals.
All AC to a max of +3 per item. Why? AC is still to high vs AB.

Damage soak max of 10 per item. Why? Damage soak coupled with damage immunities can make characters almost unkillable.

A more balanced XP script that removes all party level requirement rules. Why? To encourage more parties, no matter what the level difference.

BSK hood to 10%. Why? Slashing immunity is to high.

Max saves on an item is +1. Why? High saves makes a majority of spells useless.

Fail on 1 removed. Why? With the lowering of saves and the removal of immunities, fail on 1 is redundant.

All immunities on items removed. Fear,Mind,Death etc. Why? Immunities make a lot of spells and feats useless.

Devestating critical is allowed. All Bosses will be immune. Why? I have to throw you a bone don't I?

Thanks,
-driller

all sound good to me.
Except the Dev Crit.
I will admit to a fondness for Fail on 1, but that's just my old PnP self :)
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by Drakoboldish »

Kamileon wrote:Sadly, this ruins all my prior gear and what I was going to be working on for gear. Stuff I just bought... ah well. It makes no sense to me to lose so much and to be forced to party if I enjoy hunting alone at times.

I can't say how long I'll stick around for this. I'll try to endure as much as possible, but in my eyes, it's looking bleak.

I believe that pnp people will like this and it sounds like some people are really looking forward to these changes. And perhaps it'll make it a better place.... to some.

I hope it works the way it's meant to. I'm not a strong player, nor someone that understands builds and what you need to do what... and I prefer to party by choice, not by need. I know I know... choice is... party and survive or not to and die. *smiles* I think I can stay in low levels forever if necessary.

That's my worthless two cents.
This is why I think for proposed changes, the character base shoudl be wiped, as a fresh start.
Us spending time gathering gear, making gear, and all, will make us feel worse when the item is nerfed.

If the server is "new" no character base no old school items nerfed, and everyone starts fresh, there is less suffering gonna happen.

XDragonDoomX wrote:I am finding it difficult to feel positive about these changes.
A lot of time & energy has been spent on gear. I am also concerned about Dev Crit being introduced (reintroduced ?).
I think, for balance if Driller does as proposed. then things shoudl work out fairly well.

Crits only effect PVP I think with Amber weapons, and the ability to take Dev Crit, it will balance out.



Capt Cliff wrote:Please make copy of ALL our PC's! In case we have to come back to where we are now. Or... make a seperate server ... BSK Next Generation ... runs parallel to BSK now ,with all your changes??? A beta sort of.
I like this idea, either/or/both parts would be good.
Personally I only care about my character names, and not so much their items and even levels.

but a test server would be neat to see how things balance out.




Perhaps the test server coudl run CEP 2.2 that way driller coudl play with updates and visual aspects, testing them as we all go.
I have been making a few areas last couple days, using CEP 2.2 I re-created the Undead Road to Skara Brae, for the fun of it, and I have to say, it looks really cool.
I have a few other ideas I may build upon tonight.
I may package up a zip file and email it to Driller. :)
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by ST_DM_Myle »

The way to best nerf the PM's is to force the characters to take the first 10 levels of PM while still Pre-Epic and if the character does not have 10 levels of PM then begining at level 21 they can't take anymore PM levels. The lost AB will help defuse much of the 'problem' builds for PM's such as the Bard(or Wiz)/PM/Rangers and Sorc/Paly/PM's who take the high AB class pre-epic and the low AB classes post epic so they can eliminate the most significant draw back of PM's... their low AB... and allow the character to be a powerhouse in melee and magic.

Even if they use a Bard/PM combo pre-epic to get the extra +1 for the AB, the best pre-epic BAB they could get would be +14/+9/+4 or +24/+19/+14 at level 40.

Of course, you could also bar PM's from having Dev Crit, also.

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by magicshisha »

ST_DM_Myle wrote:The way to best nerf the PM's is to force the characters to take the first 10 levels of PM while still Pre-Epic and if the character does not have 10 levels of PM then begining at level 21 they can't take anymore PM levels. The lost AB will help defuse much of the 'problem' builds for PM's such as the Bard(or Wiz)/PM/Rangers and Sorc/Paly/PM's who take the high AB class pre-epic and the low AB classes post epic so they can eliminate the most significant draw back of PM's... their low AB... and allow the character to be a powerhouse in melee and magic.

Even if they use a Bard/PM combo pre-epic to get the extra +1 for the AB, the best pre-epic BAB they could get would be +14/+9/+4 or +24/+19/+14 at level 40.

Of course, you could also bar PM's from having Dev Crit, also.

Myle

And what about caster pms? They couldn't care less about ab.
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by tropiofCancer »

magicshisha wrote:
ST_DM_Myle wrote:The way to best nerf the PM's is to force the characters to take the first 10 levels of PM while still Pre-Epic and if the character does not have 10 levels of PM then begining at level 21 they can't take anymore PM levels. The lost AB will help defuse much of the 'problem' builds for PM's such as the Bard(or Wiz)/PM/Rangers and Sorc/Paly/PM's who take the high AB class pre-epic and the low AB classes post epic so they can eliminate the most significant draw back of PM's... their low AB... and allow the character to be a powerhouse in melee and magic.

Even if they use a Bard/PM combo pre-epic to get the extra +1 for the AB, the best pre-epic BAB they could get would be +14/+9/+4 or +24/+19/+14 at level 40.

Of course, you could also bar PM's from having Dev Crit, also.

Myle

And what about caster pms? They couldn't care less about ab.
I have absolutely no problem at all w/ caster PM's , thats the way the good lord intended it same with RDD , Its the exploit builds I find questionable taken in the spirit of the game but thats just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own style of gaming . PM's in my experience are only overpowered PvP when they break the mord scrolls out . I do however like that Voracks in the dungeon of Doom have it because it keeps clerics from running rough shod through it .
Dev crit will be pure anarchy but that in itself will be lucrative for me seeing as how I got a ton of rapiers for sale . That's right kids , dev crit on a 10-20 thats 50% of your hits your enemy will be saving or dying..pure anarchy .
Kami its like Driller said , its not going to be that bad . The pre epic lvls you won't even tell the difference except at places like ants . you and I have been playing together for a long time and if its gear your worrried about let me know and I will give you what you need . People thought umgah mages were the end of the world too .
Driller I'm fine with the ac of +3 but just for the record that will easily be circumvented . Dodge , deflection etc are all capped , the only thing the +3 will do is allow for spells and feats to offset it . Something to think about is nerfing tumble and ride . With a pal/wm/rog build you can easily get a 90 ac and thats with a buffed 12 dex . Just getting rid of the tumble will lower the ac of 90% of the players by 8 . Yeah people may say thats not fair to rogues but then again AC means absolutely nothing to a rogue , it either manages to hit/hide or it dies .That would prbably be alot more practicle than a server wipe or 'onenter' script that lowers existing gear. Damage resistance (%) could probably be handled in the same way by just capping them at say 25% . the saving throw bonuses , Immunities ( death magic , mind based spells , etc ) may be a little trickier . In the end though I gotta kind of agree with Drakoboldish and say a wipe might be more prudent in the long run . Guys the saves being lowered with regards to spells arent going to matter much to CoT's , Paladins , Monks ,or anyone with points in SpellCraft . Yeah its true smart mages will probably hit you with 'Mind Fog" then follow it up with some enchanment spell but hey..they are mages and its better than the ole' Bigby ( no save ) IGM tactic right ?
Myles you are right that the best BaB a bard/pm pre epic is around 25/ but if you stick RDD in there and take the +8 str into consideration it comes to 29 ..1 point less than a 4oth level Fighter , that does 2 points less damage than the fighters Epic weapon specialization which he spent two feats to achieve and the fighter still takes damage from fire and can be stunned by monks. Yeah I know its not a perfect world and not everyone is going to agree or be happy with the decisions but thats why we are discussing it right?
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by tropiofCancer »

ST_DM_Myle wrote:Sounds good mostly...

Will the Amber effect be tapered back?
Will some of the PM induced weaknesses be tapered back?

Myle
Myle I kinda wanted to go into a little deeper detail on that with out delving too deep into the mystery of the amber stone. Depending on the hit points of your enemy and their vulnerability to crits , yeah an amber weapon is an atom bomb . To delve a little deeper though what are the draw backs to wielding one? first off it takes four precious feats a natural strength of at least 23..ever try making a paladin with that that and still be viable in a fight and not meat to even a mediocre sneaker? Secondly an amber stone takes up alot of room on a weapon as far as forging goes . I've known one player in all my time here that had an amber in a piece of armor and the lvl of it with that one single stone I believe was 40 and the effect was less than spectacular . Considering that you can make a scythe WM that crits for 380 ( the Kurgans critted for 400) or a paladin great smiting IV ( for the same amount of feats it takes to use the amber) Then the amber really isnt the holy grail of weapons its made out to be unless you are battling a PM or some other crit immune monster and then the chances of it firing are still slim . That doesnt even compare with a PM who takes no damage from that same 380 crit that he regenerates in the next round . So okay a Pm is going to take what?..10 points extra divine or positive damage ? does that compare to the 20d6 damage he would have been taking from a sneak attack? If Driller reduces the AC to +3 a PM is still going to have Epic Mage armor and all the armor class bonuses per the class and the tumble from bard levels , all it's going to do is handicap none PM builds even further if PvP is involved . nerf PM's or nerf ambers either one but its ludicrous to say tone down amber weapons and lax up on PM immunities because of it if thats what your getting at .
Last edited by tropiofCancer on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by Drakoboldish »

Oh
I do have one more thought here.

You know what woudl make the forge fun again, is taking some of the new gemstone graphics from CEP changing appearances, and names of forgestones completely.

This way, we wont know what an Amber, or scarlet or silver (etc ) forgestone will do, and it will be a new learning process for us giving us time to get used to changes of the effects.
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by ST_DM_Myle »

I had one of the best Bard/PM/DD soakers on the server. One of the Hunters had a better all around CvC soak-fighter cause his AB was a few points above mine. Paladins and clerics were the paper to my rock and could use spells for divine and magic melee damage to defeat my PM slow but sure... cause my AB was so low I'd never land a hit. Mages could use Wither, but cried cause I used feats to get enough acid resistance to tank through their acid sheath. Nothing is quite so whinny as a mage with an acid sheath that does not strike fear into a melee build.

Those who faught my PM/DD typically did little or no damage, which yes, he was able to regen easily (except for Pally or melee-clerics who always did more damage than I could heal). Hitting him was easy since his AC was between 35 and 45. He rarely beat anyone because his AB was also around 35 to 45. He literally 'won' simply by not losing, not by actually defeating many foes. Sure he got massive crits with that Dwarflord axe (can't recall the name atm), but he still only hit on 20's. While he hit for 100+, he rarely hit.

The original Amber's produced a percentage effect rather than a totalling effect. It is hard to discuss it without the detials, but between the PM nerfs multipling the damages and the Amber producing a 'total' rather than a percentage - we ended up with many characters which had logical weaknesses to compliment their strength being dramatically effected just because of the exploitive builds.

As for Mords scrolls, unless they are broken, they should not be able to remove weapon buffs - so Paladin's shouldn't be overly effected. Buff monkeys like Clerics live with the risk that someone could drop their spells and turn them into goo - so I do not have much sympathy for them... they have the potential to be the most powerful for as long as their buffs hold - thats how they work.

As for mages... it is the same for them as always.... they suck unless they have the spells they need on hand. With the right spells, mages are unbeatable.... with the wrong spells (or worse, out of spells) the mage is doomed.

My issue with the PM nerfs is based on the fact that the balanced and non-exploitive builds were trashed while the exploitive builds were mostly abandoned and/or reworked. As someone who does not have time to crank out new experimental builds - I find it frustrating.

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by tropiofCancer »

Last time my paladin was hit by a Mord it dropped Div Might , Div shield , deafening clang..all of it even GMW and DarkFire . I thought it might have been the greater Dispelling factor but I had a friend cast a Mord from a scroll on my 38th lvl cleric and all his spells were removed as well . Greater Dispelling I believe only works on casters with less than 25 lvls . It is most assuredly broken to say the least . Mage vs mage its no big deal realy because it drops mantles like its suppose to but the way it is now a mord scroll takes away absolutely every spell or spell like ability the vic has .
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by Kamileon »

Thank you Driller. I get skittish with chaanges (could be an age thing...) I truly love BSK. If I can solo hunt, I'm happy. Not that I do that all the time, but a lot of times.

BSK is still the finest place. It's a good place for people and lots of areas to hunt in. That's a plus for someone like me who enjoys that aspect of a land.

By the way, I like the music changes. It's a good selection you have going.

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by ST_DM_Myle »

tropiofCancer wrote:Last time my paladin was hit by a Mord it dropped Div Might , Div shield , deafening clang..all of it even GMW and DarkFire . I thought it might have been the greater Dispelling factor but I had a friend cast a Mord from a scroll on my 38th lvl cleric and all his spells were removed as well . Greater Dispelling I believe only works on casters with less than 25 lvls . It is most assuredly broken to say the least . Mage vs mage its no big deal realy because it drops mantles like its suppose to but the way it is now a mord scroll takes away absolutely every spell or spell like ability the vic has .
I find this to be a touchy point. As a player, I do not think that Mords or Dispell should effect buffs on items. As a DM, I feel required to point out that if the spells are used as an area of effect - the weapon based buffs are fair game. Perhaps is it time to add components for some spells?

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by driller »

Mords has been changed to remove only magical effects. Supernatural and extraordinary effects will not be removed.

-driller
ST_DM_Myle wrote:
tropiofCancer wrote:Last time my paladin was hit by a Mord it dropped Div Might , Div shield , deafening clang..all of it even GMW and DarkFire . I thought it might have been the greater Dispelling factor but I had a friend cast a Mord from a scroll on my 38th lvl cleric and all his spells were removed as well . Greater Dispelling I believe only works on casters with less than 25 lvls . It is most assuredly broken to say the least . Mage vs mage its no big deal realy because it drops mantles like its suppose to but the way it is now a mord scroll takes away absolutely every spell or spell like ability the vic has .
I find this to be a touchy point. As a player, I do not think that Mords or Dispell should effect buffs on items. As a DM, I feel required to point out that if the spells are used as an area of effect - the weapon based buffs are fair game. Perhaps is it time to add components for some spells?

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by ST_DM_Myle »

Well the player in me likes that, ty Driller. :)

With the Mord's issue returned to a more reasonable status quo, ToC, does that help stem your mentioned concerns?

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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by tropiofCancer »

Definitely does Myles . Mords have been the way they are since I've been playing here and its never been a barrier to me enjoying the server but while we are talking about proposed changes I felt that shouldnt have been omitted . Back in the 90's when I was a young Toc and we played PnP AD&D two spells were the Bane of my DM existence and those were Mords and Iorn Gaurd . In the PnP version Mordekainens Disjunction didnt dispel magical effects they reverted them back to their original spell components so if a player got the initiative and threw a Mord at an in coming fireball it would revert it back to its original components so they would avoid the fire damage but be hit in the face w/ bat S%#t and sulfur . Opponents like Dragons and liches no longer needed spell components and I used that to the fullest extent of the law and Mords basically did nothing unless it was a spell that required alot of ritual in its casting . One thing I have always thought should be encouraged and applauded are pure classes , I have always felt a mixed mage should have a harder time dispeling the effects of a 40th lvl Wizard and Mords throw alot of crap in the mix . On behalf of all the melee builds that use a feat buff or two though this is definitely a good thing and thanks for listening to my point of view on it .
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Re: Proposes changes #2

Post by Caesius »

All AC to a max of +3 per item
--> Might I suggest gradually decreasing the value to +5, +4 then finally +3? This way you can gather data and determine if it's really necessary to go as low as +3 or not.

Damage soak max of 10 per item.
--> It will definitely encourage more teamwork and strategy.

A more balanced XP script that removes all party level requirement rules.
--> I agree, more incentives to party is always good.

BSK hood to 10%.
--> Perhaps we could re-balance it without reducing it's value. How about 10% immunity for 2 damage types instead of 25% for one type?

Max saves on an item is +1.
--> I agree with this mostly with the exception of the Fortitude saves. Why? See notes on Dev Crit below.

Fail on 1 removed.
--> Will the auto-success of rolling a 20 also be affected?

All immunities on items removed. Fear,Mind,Death
--> Agreed, this encourages pooling resources and cooperation in order to survive.

Devestating critical is allowed. All Bosses will be immune.
--> I would advise against nerfing the Fortitude save bonuses so that resourceful characters can try to fortify themselves against the abundant saving throws that may come from an assault by those trained in this deadly technique.
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