PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

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The Flying Rodent
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PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by The Flying Rodent »

Somebody has requested that a Tank build be posted up here, so here's one such example of a tank.

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Fighter(12), Dwarven Defender(26), Rogue(2), Dwarf

STR: 14
DEX: 13
CON: 19 (32)
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Dodge
02: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus: Scimitar
03: Fighter(3): Toughness
04: Fighter(4): CON+1, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (CON=20)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Knockdown, Power Attack
07: Fighter(7)
08: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=21)
09: Dwarven Defender(2): Improved Critical: Scimitar, {Defensive Awareness I}
10: Dwarven Defender(3)
11: Dwarven Defender(4)
12: Dwarven Defender(5): CON+1, Improved Knockdown, (CON=22)
13: Dwarven Defender(6)
14: Dwarven Defender(7)
15: Dwarven Defender(8): Expertise
16: Dwarven Defender(9): CON+1, (CON=23)
17: Dwarven Defender(10)
18: Fighter(8): Improved Expertise, Blind Fight
19: Fighter(9)
20: Fighter(10): CON+1, Improved Power Attack, (CON=24)
21: Fighter(11): Great Constitution I, (CON=25)
22: Rogue(1)
23: Fighter(12): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
24: Dwarven Defender(11): CON+1, Great Constitution II, (CON=27)
25: Dwarven Defender(12)
26: Dwarven Defender(13)
27: Dwarven Defender(14): Great Constitution III, Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic I, (CON=28)
28: Dwarven Defender(15): CON+1, (CON=29)
29: Dwarven Defender(16)
30: Dwarven Defender(17): Epic Energy Resistance: Acid I
31: Dwarven Defender(18): Epic Damage Reduction I
32: Dwarven Defender(19): CON+1, (CON=30)
33: Dwarven Defender(20): Epic Energy Resistance: Cold I
34: Dwarven Defender(21)
35: Dwarven Defender(22): Epic Damage Reduction II
36: Dwarven Defender(23): CON+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity I, (CON=31)
37: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
38: Dwarven Defender(24)
39: Dwarven Defender(25): Epic Energy Resistance: Fire I
40: Dwarven Defender(26): CON+1, Epic Damage Reduction III, (CON=32)

Hitpoints: 924
Skillpoints: 184
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 36/20/18
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +1, Poison: +2
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 35 (melee), 31 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 19/30
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0


Skills: Discipline 43(45), Heal 43(42), Lore 21(25), Tumble 40(41), UMD 37(35). Discipline or Heal could potentially be switched out for more Lore or Appraise. UMD however is a must have. Would be inclined to save Discipline skill until the very end if you decide to take it, so as to have enough skill points for the 37th Rogue level.


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This build is designed to do basically one thing: Soak Damage. It is not really a solo character, as it doesn't deal high amounts of damage, nor does it have very high AB. It is also not a PvP character, as it will most likely have trouble hitting a dedicated PvP build consistently whislt being critted to death.

In a PvM party scenario however with others around it to deal damage, this type of build becomes invaluable once it gets its' hands on enough resistance, buffing and healing equipment to keep itself alive in dire situations.

The weapon of choice I went with is Scimitar, but any one-handed weapon will do [i.e. One-Handed + Shield]. There are plenty of pre-epic feats available for this build, so one could potentially switch out something like Luck of Heroes for Weapon Proficiency Exotic if desired. Just be sure to stay one-handed to use Shields.

For best results, this type of build should try to adventure with characters that can deal lots of melee damage, such as This Guy.

Enjoy!
Last edited by The Flying Rodent on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Slinthius Archer »

I tried to maximize soak with gear in mind. This one took a while to level, but luckily I had a Bard and WM friend to keep me company. I lack your starting strength, but endgame gear alleviated that issue for me. Enjoy!

Dwarven Defender(27), Rogue(1), Fighter(12), Dwarf

STR: 12
DEX: 13
CON: 20 (32)
WIS: 8
INT: 13
CHA: 6

Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Expertise
02: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus: Shortsword
03: Fighter(3): Improved Expertise
04: Fighter(4): CON+1, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, (CON=21)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Resist Poison, Knockdown
07: Fighter(7)
08: Fighter(8): CON+1, Improved Critical: Shortsword, (CON=22)
09: Fighter(9): Toughness
10: Dwarven Defender(1): {Defensive Stance}
11: Dwarven Defender(2): {Defensive Awareness I}
12: Dwarven Defender(3): CON+1, Resist Energy: Cold, (CON=23)
13: Dwarven Defender(4)
14: Dwarven Defender(5)
15: Dwarven Defender(6): Resist Energy: Electricity
16: Dwarven Defender(7): CON+1, (CON=24)
17: Dwarven Defender(8)
18: Dwarven Defender(9): Resist Energy: Fire
19: Dwarven Defender(10)
20: Fighter(10): CON+1, Improved Knockdown, (CON=25)
21: Fighter(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Shortsword
22: Fighter(12): Epic Weapon Specialization: Shortsword
23: Dwarven Defender(11)
24: Dwarven Defender(12): CON+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Acid I, (CON=26)
25: Dwarven Defender(13)
26: Dwarven Defender(14): Armor Skin
27: Dwarven Defender(15): Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic I
28: Dwarven Defender(16): CON+1, (CON=27)
29: Dwarven Defender(17)
30: Dwarven Defender(18): Epic Energy Resistance: Acid II, Epic Damage Reduction I
31: Dwarven Defender(19)
32: Dwarven Defender(20): CON+1, (CON=28)
33: Dwarven Defender(21): Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic II
34: Dwarven Defender(22): Epic Damage Reduction II
35: Dwarven Defender(23)
36: Dwarven Defender(24): CON+1, Great Constitution I, (CON=30)
37: Dwarven Defender(25)
38: Dwarven Defender(26): Epic Damage Reduction III
39: Dwarven Defender(27): Great Constitution II, (CON=31)
40: Rogue(1): CON+1, (CON=32)

Hitpoints: 930
Skillpoints: 135
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 35/19/17
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +1, Poison: +6
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 34 (melee), 31 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 21/32
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Appraise 14(15), Discipline 42(43), Tumble 40(41), UMD 39(37)
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by The Flying Rodent »

Tweaked mine a bit because it probably doesn't need that much starting strength lol.

And yeah, a decent weapon helps out with offense quite a bit. As do high-damage friends. :)
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by trebusze »

The second build is a proper wall alright, but how do i play that? How is the one to go through game solo, until the end game areas?

i was thinking more about something like this one: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbg ... 54271.html

But now see it would neither a proper tank nor damage dealer.

Thanks for shearing your builds with us.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Terankar »

is one feat into epic resist of each enough if you take ele resist buffs into account?
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Yunim »

Both of these are very reliable tank builds. The only thing that I would change is the level layout on Slinthius Archer's build to Figh12/DD26/Rog2. The extra DD level only gives you 6 HP in comparison to the extra rogue level giving Evasion and 6 skill points.
Terankar wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 am is one feat into epic resist of each enough if you take ele resist buffs into account?
The highest elemental damage you will find on a mob is either a flat 20 or 2d12. With 10/- resist from feats and 10/- resist from gear (which is fairly easy to achieve) you will take at most 4 elemental damage per hit. However this doesn't take into account spells or abilities like dragon breath, this is purely for melee/ranged damage.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by The Flying Rodent »

trebusze wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:56 am The second build is a proper wall alright, but how do i play that? How is the one to go through game solo, until the end game areas?

i was thinking more about something like this one: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbg ... 54271.html

But now see it would neither a proper tank nor damage dealer.

Thanks for shearing your builds with us.
The tapatalk build I'm guessing was optimised for a different server, and I'm guessing is moreso of a solo character than this one. It looks like a good build in its' own right, but personally I'd prefer something like this build for purely a tank role.

How would you level a build like this? Gear and/or friends. The AB on this build should be decent enough at least for pre-epic levels, and for epic levels you should be fine in some areas as well with a +5 weapon. For the tougher areas though, as suggested at the beginning, it's probably best to find other melee damage dealers to befriend, who can safely sit on your flanks whilst the tank absorbs attention.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Arion »

I wish there were a 'spoilers' allowed forum where we could talk about this more directly--perhaps one would have to earn an invite by proving they had a level 40 on the server somehow. As is, I'll try to dance around the spoiler issues while still asking some specific questions.
As someone pointed out on Discord, the tank is a bit more fight specific than the DP, though both can be optimized for specific encounters. The second tank build in particular is a bit more optimized for high-end BSK as it is now given the gear available now, without getting so specialized that it becomes too obsolete should the admin change aspects of the PW. The first build is even less specialized and more flexible should things change.
But without posting spoilers, I'd like to talk about specializing and optimizing even more for high-end BSK. My first character is a level 40 DD (6 Monk/8 Fighre/26 DD). This is a build I used to start with on many servers as it is very robust and able to handle most things thrown its way. That said, at the high end of BSK, I've found lots of features to be useless and I'd like to rebuild. I'm only going to be talking about the build with respect to the endgame situation with ideal gear--I don't care about the way up. I'll get there somehow.

Some questions/points:

1.) Is AC useless?

I maxed out my AC at first, but by the time I had all the store gear and full DR and elemental resists, I found that (a) everything I feared would still auto-hit my AC, and (b) I wasn't taking much if any damage from opponents whose AB was low enough that my AC mattered. I started getting rid of all my AC gear for stats and resists and am doing much better. Enemies don't crit on BSK, so AC to lower the chance of critting doesn't matter. To take this to an extreme, I'm wondering why take any tumble at all?

2.) Are saves and/or evasion useless?

I had save feats and evasion and monk levels to improve saves. At the high end, I haven't found any of it useful. So I'm not sure it is worth taking any save feats. Nor does evasion seem worthwhile unless it is a freebie, like the 2nd rogue level if you need UMD.

3.) Why not Int 8? (UMD/Heal needed?)

If you are tanking the biggest bosses and have ideal gear, are you gonna use heal kits? Seems like a good way to catch sneak attacks! Also, in a group, why UMD? Mostly to use heal scrolls? What about a level or cleric then and Int 8? Just get discipline. (Seems like no Disc feats are needed given gear and immunities)

4.) Will you be rolling for 20s?

If you will be rolling for 20s on all the MOBs that scare you, then maybe get Improved Power Attack and make it official?

5.) 30 DD?

If you don't need UMD for the biggest fights, perhaps 8 Fighter 2 Ranger 30 DD? Who needs tumble! Get favored enemy that applies (what race is the biggest boss?). Get the extra DR.

6.) Other Considerations

So if AC doesn't matter and you will be rolling for 20s against the nastiest Mobs, then maybe skip all AC and AB feats. And why knockdown? If you aren't rolling for 20s to hit when it counts, then perhaps we need to talk about the strength vs con balance. Does it really matter if you have 800 or 1000 hp given healing and regen etc? Perhaps just get the min con for epic DR and the rest into strength. Epic weapon spec if you decide on not getting 30 DD. Sword and board still seems best given you can get resists and/or stats on a shield, though. Finally, any comments on subrace choice and/or deity?

p.s. If I've crossed any lines here with respect to revealing too much info. or asking questions that would require the same, please let me know and I'll delete the relevant bits--or the entire post. And I'll have a better idea of where the line is for the future.

p.p.s. It's been a while (almost 10 years!) since I played NWN. What fancy tech are you using to create build printouts for posting?
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by The Flying Rodent »

I imagine that spoilers aren't allowed on the forum to encourage exploration and player cooperation in game. This wouldn't happen as much if all of the relevant info about the server could be extrapolated purely from forum posts, and the sense of mystery that this place has would be lost.

There's a lot to unpack in your post Arion. I'll try and answer what I can without getting too specific.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Is Ac useless? I'd say one is better off at the highest level aiming for Damage Soak rather than high AC. But for leveling, AC certainly can help. This was my main motivation to take Tumble skill and Improved Expertise. As a side note, AC is certainly relevant for PvP characters.

2. Saves/Evasion? I wouldn't say that saves or Evasion are by any means useless. Any ability that helps to protect a tank build from harm is useful, even if only occasionally.

3. Int 14 is for an array of skills [again, mostly to make leveling easier], and probably the most important is UMD. UMD is for [as the name of the skill suggests] Magic items, and there are a number that are very useful for melee characters. I'd strongly advise keeping this skill if you were to make this build. There are probably some that could be switched around though, such as Discipline for Appraise.

4. Will this be constantly rolling for 20's due to low AB? This build with a +20 Weapon will manage 35 + 6 + 20 = 61 AB at level 40. This is sufficient to hit a number of mobs, and Improved Power Attack can help to deal more damage against low AC mobs. There will of course, however, be certain mobs with very high AC that force the tank to 'roll for 20's'. But again, the idea in these sorts of scenarios is that the tank build will be accompanied by friends with better attack and damage ...

5. Again, UMD is very useful. You're welcome to try something different if you'd like to obtain another 3 DR from 30 DD instead of 26 DD. May I remind you that scrolls come with a 25 + Spell Level skill check, so High UMD = Ability to use high level scrolls without failing a lot.

6. This build gets an awful lot of pre-epic feats, and the purpose behind most of the feats that are taken, are to make leveling easier. IMO there aren't many useful feats that can replace them unfortunately, other than perhaps save feats such as Great Fortitude or Iron Will. Again, if you feel that these are more appropriate than what are listed in the build, feel free to take them on your one.

And finally: What do I use to format my posts? This handy template! =)

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ulator-cbc
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Arion »

Thanks Rodent. I think I'm probably at the limit of what t he forum will allow. Even the Discord chat seems to follow the unwritten rule of not revealing too much.
I'm only interested in making a new DD tank optimized for the very hardest "boss" fights. I have zero concern for PvP or leveling or being better against the highest level regular mobs that I or anyone else can still take out pretty easily.
I can see Tumble mattering not for the AC but to protect against AOO from Bosses that really, really hit hard. I can see UMD mattering a lot, especially if one wants to use scrolls to try soloing certain tough bosses as well. But I'll have to get more info before I figure out if you really need it for taking down the biggest bads, usually in a group. Some discipline might matter for called shots or disarm, but I'll have to see if any of my "target" bosses do that.
I don't mind remaking my DD say twice more. The next time I want to get almost all the way there, and then a third time to get it perfect.
I think my best bet is to just keep exploring and grinding items with my current 40 DD, imperfect as he is. And meeting players in game, talking directly in chat to players who have seen me experience the high end content so they know they aren't spoiling. Perhaps, in the end, some veterans like to keep some of their hard won knowledge to themselves anyways. So maybe I'll just run the hardest fights myself and look at the logs to get the info. I really want--probably how many others got it.
These are some great builds, but they aren't quite what I'm looking for.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Yunim »

Arion wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:36 am I'm only interested in making a new DD tank optimized for the very hardest "boss" fights. I have zero concern for PvP or leveling or being better against the highest level regular mobs that I or anyone else can still take out pretty easily.
Before remaking your current tank I suggest taking it along on a few high end boss runs so that you can see for yourself the sort of mobs you will be fighting against. There are currently only two boss runs where a tank is absolutely essential, so if you really want an optimised tank I would suggest a separate tank for each run.
Arion wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:36 am I can see UMD mattering a lot, especially if one wants to use scrolls to try soloing certain tough bosses as well. But I'll have to get more info before I figure out if you really need it for taking down the biggest bads, usually in a group. Some discipline might matter for called shots or disarm, but I'll have to see if any of my "target" bosses do that.
Technically you can gear and buff yourself without UMD, but tanking is much easier if you do have it. Most of your time tanking will be spent using wands, which require UMD since you need both arcane and divine wands, and Greater Restoration scrolls. There are also other scrolls that can help speed up boss runs, but usually somebody else in the party will have them available even if you don't so they aren't as vital.

As for discipline, there is practically no point in investing in it for high end mobs. If they use a combat feat against you it will hit and you won't resist it.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Terankar »

I get that 12/26/2 is the most all round setup but 30 Dwd is still tasty. I would do 8ftr/2cot,2pal,ranger,monk/dwd. Always start with the class with most skills at lvl 1.

UMD can je foregone, but as rodent says, it gives you options and extra survivability.

best stats would be: 16,13,18,8,13,6 or decrease con to 16 to up int and wis.

16,14,17,8,14,6 also works well.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Arion »

Thanks guys. Clearly I have a lot more to learn.
I can understand a different tank for each big boss. Gearing two tanks is a lot more daunting than the thought of leveling two. But it is what it is.
Before I ignore the 2 rogue levels Terankar, I'll figure out if they are suggesting UMD makes the tanking more convenient or more optimal. It actually sounds like the latter--if your offense sucks, then I can see just spending your time chaining Greater Rez scrolls mid combat--with enough fighting to maintain aggro.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Slinthius Archer »

I only took 1 rogue since I get more hp with DD and I have a certain item that gives me Imp. Evasion so I thought Evasion isn't necessary. I also read that I get an Evasion-like ability with being a DD, but I can't find it.
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Re: PvM Tank Build - Fighter 12 / Dwarven Defender 26 / Rogue 2

Post by Terankar »

dwd gives uncanny dodge, not evasion.
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