Next class to boost: Paladin?

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Cornflower
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Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by Cornflower »

Driller lately has boosted the Bladeweaver, the Barbarian and the Assassin in order to make those classes more viable. In my opinion, this was very nicely done and has increased the interest in those classes. That is a major good thing. I mean, everybody can't be running around with the same build, that would be terribly boring. So, a big thumbs up for that. :!:

Side note. After having played all three of the classes above from 0 to 40, here's my opinion:
Barbarian is so fun, also it lowers the need for forging all the gear, but could use longer duration on the rages, you have to rest so often.
Assassin maybe a bit overpowered, but very nice indeed, it makes the "backstabbing" classes more viable.
Bladeweaver is good but not overpowered, especially since the random triggering of regen/magic damage makes it exciting since you're not sure if you're going to get creamed or totally crush the opponent.

Now, I have a suggestion for the next class to give slight boost. It's the Paladin, who is supposed to be a very mighty holy warrior, wreaking havoc among the evil and the undead. This is not quite the case today. Most builds today use 1-3 levels of Paladin just in order to be able to get Divine Might and use a HA, which in my (very personal) opinion is a bit cheesy. Also, there's really not much arguments for playing a Paladin, since you're very weak against most high-end monsters. I have a paladin/rdd combo with 29 levels of paladin, which is supposed to be very good, but in reality, I could just as well be playing a paladin3/fighter/WM or something. I'd get the same benefits (which are not that big, really) but much more benefits from the other classes.

So, here's my suggestion:
:arrow: Boost the Paladin in some way. Perhaps add some divine damage based on Paladin level.
Maybe restricted, similar to tumble, 0-4 gives nothing, but every five levels give +d4 divine damage.
Maybe random, similar to the Bladeweaver, add d6 chance of level+5 divine damage.
Maybe similar to the Barbarian rage, if you trigger Divine Might/Shield/Favor, you get better divine damage/AB/AC bonus based on a combo of CHA bonus and Paladin level.
I don't know which is easiest to script as it has to work with the current HA OnHit scripting, also it can't unbalance the encounters, but I'm sure driller can do this in the smartest way.

So, what do you think, guys?

Should we ask for a slight improvement of the "true" Paladin compared to the "I'll throw in a level of Paladin so I can get divine damage"-builds?

After all, a Paladin is supposed to be a Holy warrior, devastating against enemies.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Please let me know what you think!
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by itchyfunk »

Not gonna lie this post worked its way into the TL;DR category. Lol

I think paledin actually do ok for themselves on BSK. DM is very powerful and the fighter and progression is worth note. Additionally, spells like blessed weapon are meaningful throughout the leveling experience as well as end game. Then there is access to vanilla HA, which is nothing to pass off

I think Pali are pretty solid on BSK. If I could have managed a chaotic-lawful alignment swap, I'd pick them over BG in most scenarios.
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by Yunim »

Personally I don't think that paladins need a buff.

The reason for buffing assassins and barbarians was because there was practically no reason to make them at all, not just because they were weak classes.
Death Attack got nerfed in EE and is useless on high end PvM runs anyway since 1s aren't auto-fails on BSK. Add onto that the lower skill points and worse feat choices, rogue was almost always a better class choice than assassin.
Vanilla rage is practically useless when you can achieve +12str, +12con, and +20 saves from gear. Barbarians do get DR but it's much lower than DD DR so there was no real reason to make a barbarian.

Paladins already get high BAB, Divine Might, Divine Shield, improved saves, and Holy Avenger (plus HA dispel). Most of these can be gained with just 3 or 4 levels but that's just how some classes are. Monks and shadowdancers both get a lot of benefits with just 1 level, (ab)using that is the nature of powerbuilds.

Pal29/Sorc1/RDD10 is a decent balanced build but in terms of pure offence a Figh12/WM25/Pal3 is going to be better. That doesn't mean that the Pal/RDD is a bad build or that it needs to be buffed, a minmaxed Figh/WM/Pal is one of the best PvM DPS builds so most builds do less damage than it. Just for the record a minmaxed single-wielding Pal29/Sorc1/RDD10 is still a very strong build, it outdamages a minmaxed single-wielding Figh11/WM28/Rog1 on most bosses and is a better choice overall for high end PvM.
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by Cornflower »

Firat question:
What does this mean?
itchyfunk wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:32 pm Not gonna lie this post worked its way into the TL;DR category. Lol
Second questions:
Not to be obnoxious or something, but how many paladins have you leveled up and what builds have you been using? It’s an honest question, because my paladins (I’ve leveled up three so far) are always getting creamed all the time outside the quest lines. So if you’re doing good I need to educate myself. I might be using a bad build, or the wrong tactics, or just plain playing bad.
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by itchyfunk »

I've never leveled an pure paladin if that's the core of your question. I've made 2. One Archer one melee. I am about to build another wm/Pali because of a sword I found that seems like it will be a fun weapon.

I know several other players that use Pali as an important component of their PvM toon. But I'm not aware of any that make that their sole class.

That said, I think unless you are multiclassing your toon will not be as strong as it might otherwise be. I believe that would even be a true statement for clerics. On the otherhand, if you like "the character behind the character" and you enjoy playing the toon, that's really all that matters.

Regardless which way you go paladin divine might is very powerful (divine shield not so much on BSK).

What do you find weak about the class? What would you improve? They have solid AB. AC is as good as any other class. Damage buffs with spells and feats selection are both solid. Skills might be an area of weakness... But there are other pure classes that lack access to UMD which is really the big one.

The biggest problem o have with them is the alignment restrictions... Which is why I tend to hit up BG despite the feat requirements.
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by Cornflower »

itchyfunk wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:29 pm

What do you find weak about the class? What would you improve? They have solid AB. AC is as good as any other class. Damage buffs with spells and feats selection are both solid. Skills might be an area of weakness... But there are other pure classes that lack access to UMD which is really the big one.

The biggest problem o have with them is the alignment restrictions... Which is why I tend to hit up BG despite the feat requirements.
The biggest problem I have is that they take too much damage. That might be a gear thing, though, but I have a feeling a Paladin (maybe not pure, but with 20+ levels of Paladin) is a bit of a glass jaw. They can deal damage OK, but when they get hit, they die quickly. This might be due to the fact that on BSK, AC is more or less useless, I don't know.
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by itchyfunk »

I think that's mostly gear; especially it's your core stats are ok AB mid-60s and up. AC... Well AC doesn't matter on BSK; you're gonna get hot by the mobs unless your up in the mid-/high-70s or higher and have concealment.

My go-to gear usually involves 15/- s/b/p combat gloves. Those help a lot. If it's ironfist all the better. At the least get the 10/- Akon sells.

You might also conider going con based (or at least partially con) so you can get the epic dr feats... Made a pretty tanky con/dm Archer that way...I don't remember what the con requirement was.. 21+ I think.. it's pretty attainable. With the gloves that would soak 24pts of physical before DI is adjusted.

+7 Con boots from UD and an RoP. (Or prator or dragon shield if you carry one)

And for melee toons that aren't sneaky, the right type/mix of DI armor, helm, shield.

Oh speaking of concealment: imp invis by wand, scroll or potion... Or the cloak of displacement in marvale (bit high maintenance, but works if you don't have access to UMD)
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Re: Next class to boost: Paladin?

Post by Cornflower »

Thank you, that's good advice!
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