Suggestion for later level casters

[Kane0]

Some sort of boost to spell DCs, damage from spells or both. There are a select few foes with saves under +20 or so but other than that you're primarily relying on different varieties of meatshield to do the heavy lifting for you. Doesn't really feel like you're a reality-warping master of magic so much as a glorified squire.

For example, would it be possible to switch all spell DCs to 10 + half level + casting mod once you become an epic caster, or a flat +1 to spell DCs for every few levels of a casting class once they get into epic levels? In a similar vein, add something like casting mod or spellcraft to the damage dealt by spells cast by epic casters? Something to keep their limited slots competitive when used to attack and/or debuff rather than buff.

SR, DR, immunities, mantles, etc would still be in play but it would feel like a much more even playing field, especially since casters don't get the same sort of steady progression after hitting epic levels that martials get.

[Ming]

Don't forget that Issacs is capped at 12 missles also. I can do more damage on my Sorceress by sitting still drinking potions in one round of combat then if I tried to cast 2 maximized Issacs. But yeah NWN scales terribly for casters in epic levels. I am not a builder by any means, but I think the only way to add dc to the spells would be to add haks back into the server.

[Cornflower]

Don't forget that Issacs is capped at 12 missles also. I can do more damage on my Sorceress by sitting still drinking potions in one round of combat then if I tried to cast 2 maximized Issacs. But yeah NWN scales terribly for casters in epic levels. I am not a builder by any means, but I think the only way to add dc to the spells would be to add haks back into the server.

You can edit spell scripting without haks.

[driller]

Yep and there are a *lot* of them.

Perhaps just a select few. Doing all of them would be a bit of a task.

Don't forget that Issacs is capped at 12 missles also. I can do more damage on my Sorceress by sitting still drinking potions in one round of combat then if I tried to cast 2 maximized Issacs. But yeah NWN scales terribly for casters in epic levels. I am not a builder by any means, but I think the only way to add dc to the spells would be to add haks back into the server.

You can edit spell scripting without haks.

[Ming]

I see. I've never used the toolset in the entire 16 years I've played this game. Not the creative type. Its a difficult to balance issue with casters though. On the one hand the majority of their spells are useless at epic levels due to terrible damage scaling. On the otherhand they can sit and drink potions, while dealing out 100s of reflective damage, with 50% of all attacks missing them, while having a massive undispellable damage absorb.

[Sapphire]

Be a grabby mage take all the grab spells apart from the interpose which is only useful against archer type mobs... Most mobs get stunned with the effects and you can stand next to them and bash away with a decent light weapon like a mace or even a morningstar...

The one issue I had with high level sorceress's I use to play is the almost laughable useless summons you have even epic dragon and mummy don't last too log and you then only have the BBoD which I suppose is fine if you have like 12 level 9 slots to play with...

Waring though there are mobs out there that can't be touched by the BBoD as the +5 just does not have enough umph to make a difference... One thing that could improve that is if Driller would take away the nee4d to consentrate wilst the BBoD is around... This would allow the mage to cast extra's on the BBoD like flame weapon, haste, etc...

[Ming]

Be a grabby mage take all the grab spells apart from the interpose which is only useful against archer type mobs... Most mobs get stunned with the effects and you can stand next to them and bash away with a decent light weapon like a mace or even a morningstar...

The one issue I had with high level sorceress's I use to play is the almost laughable useless summons you have even epic dragon and mummy don't last too log and you then only have the BBoD which I suppose is fine if you have like 12 level 9 slots to play with...

Waring though there are mobs out there that can't be touched by the BBoD as the +5 just does not have enough umph to make a difference... One thing that could improve that is if Driller would take away the nee4d to consentrate wilst the BBoD is around... This would allow the mage to cast extra's on the BBoD like flame weapon, haste, etc...

Only epic spells worth using IMO are Epic warding, and Epic mage armor. The rest are a waste of a feat. Yes grab spells are good too, but that still doesnt solve the issue that nwn has. Which is that almost all spells are terrible at epic lvls. In the 1-20 version of the game, you could find a use for the majority of the spells. But bioware just didnt do enough for epic casters. Its not a problem I expect driller to fix though, as its a game problem. I've played on servers where they tried to fix it. And while casting a 40d8 Horrid wilting, 40d6 fireballs, etc is a solution, it causes other problems.

[Kane0]

Actually the epic summons spells have been custom changed and are quite worthwhile now. Hopefully this pattern will be slowly rolled out to other spells, but that is a long road. It still seems the best overall approach though, provided everything is well documented*

As for the Bigby's line, Interposing I find the most reliable. Forceful, Grasping and Crushing have two points of failure: the STR check and a status effect that one can be immune to. Clenched offers a Fort save, and so suffers on the DC front.

They are a good series of spells but even if they work (avoiding any SR or spell immunity) they are debuffs and you have to actually kill the critter somehow. HP damage spells aren't ideal, and insta-kills aren't effective either due to SR, Death Spell immunity or unmatchable saves.
That leaves the three return-damage spells (four if you count wounding whispers) and the various methods of obtaining beatsticks to do it for you as your viable options.

Buffs and debuffs work fine for the most part (well some debuffs at any rate), it's the methods left by the wayside i'm talking about. Throwing out Isaacs, Wiltings and Wails are like pissing in the wind. Some wizard you are, do you even nuke?

If someone could provide me a resource on how to alters these things I'd be happy to give it a go, just like those weapon exports.

*We should definitely work towards avoiding a situation where someone chooses something when building a character be that feat, spell, etc and gets something entirely different to what they signed up for with no forewarning. Doubly so if it conflicts with what external sources like the NWN Wiki states.

[Cornflower]

...

If someone could provide me a resource on how to alters these things I'd be happy to give it a go, just like those weapon exports.

...

Although there are many scripts to edit, I think the problem is more to decide what you want to change. Scripting is doable. I can do it, if I just get a list of what should be changed from what to what.

[Kane0]

Oh boy give me a few days an a carton of beer i’ll have a list ready dont you worry!

But first: perhaps a poll or something ti determine what to focus on, and what direction to take. Should we start at the top and work backwards? How many spells do we actually want to change, and which ones? How drastically to we want to deviate from stock? Are people OK with such changes in the first place?

[Kane0]

So before I dive in, lets put together some guidelines so things can be as easy as possible to understand, communicate and balance around. I propose:

Spell Damage: average of 1 damage per caster level per caster level, +50% for single target spells and -50% for damage spells without a save. No level caps.

Damage types:
Common damage types (Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing): +20% average damage
Uncommon damage types (Acid, Cold, Fire, Electrical, Sonic): no change
Rare damage types (Divine, Magical, Negative, Positive): -20% average damage

All Spell Save DCs = 10 + 3/4 caster level + Casting stat

So say Fireball should deal an average 3 damage per caster level, the current 1d6 (3.5) per caster level works well enough. Horrid Wilting on the other hand should be doing more at about 6.5 per caster level, the equivalent of something like 2d6 per caster level instead of 1d8.
We can treat Epic spells as 10th level doing this, so Hellball should be doing 10 per caster level (1d4 of each damage type) and Greater Ruin should pretty much erase a single target at 12 (2d8 + 1d6) per caster level

Happy to discuss particulars and alternatives, this is just spitballing a starting point.

[Cornflower]

Well.... Not to rain on the parade...

First of all, it's a lot of scripting. I can do it, but I'm pretty sure driller won't want to let more or less unknown players script core scripts in his world. Since he needs to keep the world working, he has a whole other responsibility.

Also, he needs to keep an eye on overall balance. If we edit spells, the same changes goes for the monsters too, which can cause unpredictable effects.

In general, just because you have a (great) idea and I boldly claim that I can script it, does in no way mean that a) it's feasible, b) that driller thinks it's a good idea and c) that driller feels he can do the maintenance even if d) he actually lets someone else fiddle with the scripting.

What I meant with "I can script it" was "it's not that hard". What I didn't write was "there's a whole bunch of other considerations neither you nor I have thought about". Still, my point still stands, the problem is not the scripting, it's balance, deciding on what works, what should be nerfed and how to do the maintenance.

[Cornflower]

All that being said, you can probably make a big difference for spellcasters if you do just these small changes:

Increase the DC of spellcasters on selected spells.
and/or
Decrease the saves of the monsters.

Now, this will disrupt game balance and will also affect PvP (which is something I usually ignore on my world, since I don't like PvP). It will recquire los of work and lots of testing. I'm not betting on driller being keen on it. As a PW owner and builder, you tend (wisely so) to go for "if it works, don't fix it".

[Mask-inc]

hmm, you all speaking for PvM, but remember that there is PvP around too, try not to un-balance that part too, right...



Mask

[Cornflower]

hmm, you all speaking for PvM, but remember that there is PvP around too, try not to un-balance that part too, right...



Mask

That’s why I said:

Now, this will disrupt game balance and will also affect PvP

Still, you could probably

Decrease the saves of the monsters.

without making a mess of things.